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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

14/06/2017

 

 

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

 

 

 

 

Cynnwys
Contents

 

.........

3....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

 

4....... Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 4 News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 4

 

49..... Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

50..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting

         

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod. Cyhoeddir fersiwn derfynol ymhen pum diwrnod gwaith.

 

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record. The final version will be published within five working days.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance

 

Hannah Blythyn
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Dawn Bowden
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Suzy Davies
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Neil Hamilton
Bywgraffiad|Biography

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

Bethan Jenkins
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)

Dai Lloyd
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Jeremy Miles
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance

 

Yr Athro/Professor Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones

Yr Athro Cyfryngau a Diwydiannau Creadigol, Prifysgol Aberystwyth
Professor of Media and Creative Industries, Aberystwyth University

Dr Ifan Morgan Jones

 

Darlithydd mewn Newyddiaduraeth, Prifysgol Bangor
Lecturer in Journalism, Bangor University

 

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance

 

Steve George

Clerc
Clerk

Rhea James

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Robin Wilkinson

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

 

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:27.
The meeting began at 09:27.

 

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

 

[1]          Bethan Jenkins: Croeso i’r pwyllgor. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 1, sef cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon. Croeso i’r Aelodau. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff, ond ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a gellir chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0. Nid oes angen cyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall hyn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch bod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad fuddiant i’w ddatgan y bore yma? Na. Rydym ni wedi cael ymddiheuriadau gan Lee Waters, a dylai Suzy Davies fod yn ymuno â ni yn y man.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Welcome to the committee meeting. We move on to item 1, which is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Welcome to the Members. If a fire alarm should sound, please do leave the room through the exits, following the instructions of the ushers, but we don’t expect a fire drill. Everyone should turn their mobile phones off or on silent. The Assembly operates bilingually and headsets are available to hear interpretation and to adapt the sound for people who are hard of hearing. Interpretation is available on channel 1, and you can amplify the sound on channel 0. You don’t have to touch the buttons on the microphones because this could impair the system, and do ensure that the red light is on before you start speaking. Does any Assembly Member have any declarations of interest to make this morning? No. We have received apologies from Lee Waters, and Suzy Davies should be joining us shortly.

 

09:28

 

 

Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 4
News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 4

 

[2]          Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 2, sef newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru a sesiwn dystiolaeth 4, a chroeso i’r Athro Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones, yr Athro cyfryngau a diwydiannau creadigol o Brifysgol Aberystwyth, a hefyd i Ifan Morgan Jones, darlithydd mewn newyddiaduraeth ym Mhrifysgol Bangor. Croeso i chi’ch dau. Mae lot, lot fawr o gwestiynau gyda ni, fel y byddech yn tybio, ond y cwestiwn cyntaf gen i yw: pa effaith mae’r dirywiad mewn newyddiaduriaeth leol wedi ei gael ar newyddiaduriaeth yn gyffredinol? A ydy hynny wedi effeithio ar y cymunedau mewn ffordd negyddol? Sut ydych chi’n meddwl wedyn y maen nhw wedi ceisio ymdopi gyda hyn mewn cymunedau ar hyd ac ar led Cymru? Diolch.

 

Bethan Jenkins: We move on to item 2, namely news journalism in Wales and evidence session 4, and welcome to Professor Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones, the Professor of media and creative industries from Aberystwyth University, and also Ifan Morgan Jones, lecturer in journalism at Bangor University. Welcome to you both. We have a great many questions for you, as you’d expect, but the first question from me is: what impact has the decline in news journalism in Wales has had on journalism in general? Has that affected the communities in a negative manner? How do you think, then, that they have tried to cope with that in communities across Wales? Thank you.

[3]          Dr Jones: Wyt ti eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?

 

Dr Jones: Would you like to go first?

 

[4]          Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Iawn, fe wnaf i fynd yn gyntaf. Nid wyf i fod i gyffwrdd unrhyw beth, nac ydw.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Yes, I’m happy to do so. I’m not supposed to touch anything, am I.

[5]          Bethan Jenkins: Dim byd. [Chwerthin.]

 

Bethan Jenkins: Nothing. [Laughter.]

[6]          Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Iawn. Wel, rydw i’n meddwl eich bod chi wleidyddion yn gwybod cystal ag unrhyw un beth ydy’r effaith sydd yn digwydd pan rydych chi’n teimlo nad yw newyddiaduraeth yn gweithio yn ddigonol, lle mae poblogaethau yn mynd heb ddigon o wybodaeth, heb ddigon o drafodaeth ar faterion ar sawl lefel o lywodraethiant, boed hwnnw’n lefel llywodraethiant ar y lefel Undeb Ewropeaidd, ar lefel Brydeinig, ar lefel Gymreig, a hefyd ar y lefelau lleol a’r awdurdodau lleol ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae’r ffaith bod gennym ni lai o newyddiaduraeth leol yn digwydd ar y lefelau yna i gyd hefyd yn golygu bod yna lai o drafodaeth gyhoeddus a llai o wybodaeth ar gael wrth i bobl wneud penderfyniadau mewn cyfnodau o bleidleisio. Ond hefyd mae angen inni fod yn ofalus ynglŷn â’r cyfnodau hynny pan nad yw pobl yn pleidleisio, ac nid dim ond ar y pwyntiau yna mewn tymor etholiadau y mae angen inni fod yn talu sylw at ddiffyg trafodaeth a diffyg gwybodaeth.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Fine. Well, I think you as politicians know as well as anyone just what the impact is when you feel that journalism isn’t working adequately, where populations don’t have sufficient information and there isn’t sufficient discussion and debate on issues relating to many levels of governance, be that governance at European level, at the UK level, at a Welsh level, and also at the local level and local authority level, and so on. So, the fact that we have less local journalism happening on those levels does means that there is less public debate and less information available as people make decisions at times of elections and other voting times. But we also need to be guarded in terms of those periods when people aren’t casting their votes, and it’s not just at those times in an electoral cycle that we need to be fully aware of the lack of debate and the lack of information out there.

09:30

[7]          Rwy’n meddwl bod dod â phobl ifanc, fel rydym wedi bod yn trafod dros yr wythnosau diwethaf yn enwedig, i mewn i’r arfer o ddarllen, yn ogystal â gwylio neu wrando ar newyddiaduraeth a chreu newyddiaduraeth eu hunain yn un o’r blaenoriaethau y gall y math yma o bwyllgor, o bosib, fod yn ei ystyried. Rydym yn gwybod bod gennym adroddiad newydd ym maes addysg sydd yn gosod cyfathrebu a llythrennedd fel un o’r prif bwyntiau i arwain y cwricwlwm newydd. Felly, byddem ni’n gweld bod yna le i ddod â newyddiaduraeth—nid yn unig i bobl ifanc fod yn meddwl am newyddiaduraeth fel rhywbeth iddyn nhw ei ddarllen a’i ‘consume-o’ a’i ddefnyddio, ond rhywbeth y dylen nhw fod yn cyfrannu ato. Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod y pwyslais yna’n rhywbeth a fyddai, wedyn, maes o law, yn gallu cryfhau newyddiaduraeth leol.

 

I think that bringing young people, as we’ve been discussing over the past few weeks particularly, into the habit of reading, as well as watching or listening to journalism and generating their own journalism is one of the priorities that this kind of committee could be considering. We know that there is a new report in the field of education that places communication and literacy as one of the main issues in the new curriculum. So, I would assume that there is scope to bring journalism—not just for young people to think of journalism as something that they consume and use, but something that they should also be contributing to and generating. So, I do think that that emphasis is something that could, in due time, strengthen that local journalism.

[8]          Mae’n bwysig, wrth inni feddwl am sut rydym ni’n rhoi cyfrifoldeb ar y system addysg ac ar y genhedlaeth nesaf, i wneud iawn am fethiannau'r oedolion presennol. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth i’w ystyried, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae rhoi pwyslais ar drio cael pobl ifanc i gymryd rhan mewn newyddiaduraeth leol yn un peth, ond ni ddylai hynny fod yn ateb sy’n golygu nad oes yna le i’r boblogaeth hŷn i fod yn gwneud hynny, neu’r boblogaeth oedolion. Hynny ydy, ni ddylem basio ymlaen i’r genhedlaeth nesaf yr hyn nad ydym wedi gallu llwyddo i’w wneud ein hunain. Ni ddylem fod yn ‘infantile-eiddio’, mewn ffordd, rai agweddau ar sut rydym eisiau gweld pethau’n newid yn y dyfodol.

 

It is important, as we consider how we put additional responsibilities on the education system and the next generation, to make up for the failings of people who are adults now—that’s something that we need to bear in mind, of course. So, putting an emphasis on encouraging young people to participate in local journalism is one thing, but that shouldn’t be a solution that means that there isn’t also a role for the adult population to also participate. We shouldn’t pass on to the next generation what we have failed to deliver ourselves. We shouldn’t be infantilising, in a way, some aspects of how we want to see things changing and developing for the future.

 

[9]          Ynghylch sut mae cymunedau cynaliadwy, sut mae trafodaeth yn digwydd ar lefelau lleol a beth ydy gwybodaeth pobl ynglŷn â’r hyn sydd ar gael yn eu cymunedau nhw a’r hyn y gallan nhw gyfrannu at eu cymunedau nhw—mae’r rôl sydd gan newyddiaduraeth leol yn bwysig iawn, iawn. Ond byddwn i hefyd yn meddwl beth ydy’r berthynas rhwng newyddiaduraeth leol—er enghraifft, rydw i’n byw yn Aberystwyth, felly mae yna newyddiaduraeth leol yn cael ei chynhyrchu yn fanna ar lefel broffesiynol gan y Cambrian News yn ogystal â’r newyddiaduraeth leol sy’n cael ei chynhyrchu yn wirfoddol gan y papurau bro. Mae’n bwysig meddwl am y berthynas rhwng beth sy’n lleol a beth sy’n genedlaethol, yn enwedig yn y cyd-destun Cymreig—mae hynny’n bwysig. Nid wyf yn meddwl y dylem fod yn disgwyl i newyddiaduraeth leol drafod pethau sy’n cael eu cyfyngu gan y syniad o’r lleol. Mae materion byd-eang, materion ar lefel wladwriaeth ac ar lefel ranbarthol fydol i gyd yn bethau sy’n effeithio ar ein bywydau ni bob dydd. Felly, ni fyddwn i am inni feddwl am newyddiaduraeth leol fel rhywbeth sy’n blwyfol neu’n gyfyngedig. Mae o’n bersbectif ar faterion sydd yn bwysig yn ehangach, rwy’n meddwl. Felly, rhai sylwadau cychwynnol gen i yn fanna.

 

In terms of communities becoming sustainable, how discussion happens at a local level and what the level of information is that people have about what’s available in their communities and what they can contribute to their communities—the role of local journalism is crucially important. But I would also consider what the link is between local journalism—for example, I live in Aberystwyth and there is local journalism produced on a professional level there by the Cambrian News, as well as the more localised journalism that is produced voluntarily by the papurau bro. It’s important to consider how the interrelationship between what is local and what is national develops, particularly in the Welsh context—that’s crucially important. I don’t think that we should expect local journalism to discuss things that are limited to the local. Global issues, state-level issues, as well as regional global issues all impact on our daily lives. Therefore, I wouldn’t want us to think of local journalism as something that is highly parochial or very limited. It is a perspective on issues that are of wider importance, I think. So, those are just some initial comments from me there.

 

[10]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr. Ifan.

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. Ifan.

 

[11]      Dr Jones: Rydw i’n meddwl y buaswn i’n ategu popeth yr oedd Elin yn ei ddweud yn fanna. Mae yna bryder mawr, yn enwedig mewn amser o gyni economaidd pan mae nifer o gynghorau’n gorfod gwneud toriadau ar hyn o bryd, nad yw nifer o bobl yn ymwybodol neu efallai ddim yn rhan o’r drafodaeth. Nid oes yna sffêr gyhoeddus leol, mewn ffordd, mewn lle fel bod pobl yn gallu dylanwadu, efallai, neu’n gwybod lle mae’r toriadau yna’n mynd i syrthio.

 

Dr Jones: I think I would endorse everything that Elin has just said there. There are huge concerns, especially in times of economic austerity where councils have to make cuts at present, that a number of people aren’t aware or perhaps aren’t even part of the discussion. There isn’t a local public sphere, in a way, where people can influence, perhaps, or know where those cuts are going to fall.

[12]      Rydw i’n poeni tipyn bach—mae yna lot o sôn ar hyn o bryd am newyddion tra lleol, neu hyperleol, felly, fel rhyw fath o ateb i nifer o’r problemau yma. Rydw i wedi bod i nifer o gynadleddau sy’n trafod hyn, ond beth sy’n fy mhryderu i, efallai, ydy’r ffaith nad yw’r sail economaidd yno y tu cefn i newyddion hyperleol. Mae’r cwestiwn ymhob un o’r cynadleddau—maen nhw’n gallu bod yn eithaf iwtopaidd mewn ffordd—ynglŷn â chymunedau lleol yn cymryd rheolaeth o newyddiaduraeth. Ond ar ddiwedd y dydd, rydw i’n meddwl bod angen newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol, ac mae angen amser ac adnoddau ar bobl i fedru mynd i’r afael â newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol er mwyn datgelu beth sy’n mynd ymlaen yn eu cymunedau nhw. Dyna’r fath o newyddiaduraeth sydd yn y pen draw yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth mwyaf.

 

I’m a little bit concerned—there’s a great deal of mention made about hyperlocal news as some kind of response to these issues. I’ve been to a number of conferences that have been discussing this, but what concerns me, perhaps, is that the economic foundation isn’t there behind hyperlocal news. The question in all of the conferences that I’ve attended—they can be quite utopian in their point of view—is about local communities taking control of journalism. But, ultimately, I think that we need journalism that’s professional, and that time and resources need to be available for people to undertake investigatory journalism to discover what’s going on in their communities. That’s the kind of journalism that makes the greatest difference, I think.

 

[13]      Beth rydw i’n tueddu’i weld yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, dim hyd yn oed ar lefel lleol a lefel rhanbarthol, ond yn rhywbeth fel y Daily Post, ydy lot o newyddion yn dod o rai ffynonellau megis, er enghraifft, y llysoedd. Bron bob dydd yn y Daily Post, mae yna ryw drosedd ar y dudalen flaen. Rydw i’n meddwl efallai, oherwydd y cyfyngu ar yr adnoddau yna sydd yn digwydd, fod yna efallai orddibyniaeth wedyn ar ffynonellau newyddion gweddol syml, lle mae modd i’r newyddiadurwr fynd ac eistedd yn y llys drwy’r dydd a bod y newyddion yn dod tuag atyn nhw.

 

What I tend to see being done at present, not even at a local level or regional level, but with something like the Daily Post, is a great deal of news is coming from some sources, for example, the courts. Almost every day in the Daily Post, there is some kind of crime reported on the front page. I think that because there’s that restriction on resources, there’s an over-reliance then on news sources that are relatively simple, where the journalist can go and sit in the court all day and that news comes to them.

 

 

[14]      Roedd eich cwestiwn chi’n trafod y lleol yn benodol, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yna le i boeni, fel roedd Elin yn sôn hefyd, am y cenedlaethol yng Nghymru, a’r ffaith bod gennym ni, rydw i’n meddwl, ddiffyg democrataidd difrifol yma yng Nghymru lle mae’r ymchwil gan y BBC ac ICM, er enghraifft, wedi dangos bod anwybodaeth yn helaeth ynglŷn â, hyd yn oed, er enghraifft, pa rymoedd sylfaenol sydd gan y Cynulliad. Er enghraifft, y nifer o bobl sydd ddim yn gwybod mai’r Cynulliad sydd yn gyfrifol am iechyd, er enghraifft. Mae lot o bobl yn meddwl mai’r Cynulliad sy’n gyfrifol am yr heddlu ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae gen i bryderon go iawn am y diffyg democrataidd yna yn ogystal â’r problemau lleol.

 

Your question discussed local issues specifically, but I think that there is room for concern, as Elin said as well, about the national picture in Wales and the fact that we have, I think, a serious democratic deficit here in Wales. The research from the BBC and ICM, for example, has shown that there is a widespread lack of knowledge, even about what base of powers the Assembly has, for example. People don’t know that the Assembly is responsible for health, for example. Many people think that the Assembly is responsible for policing and so on. So, I do have genuine concerns about the democratic deficit, as well as the local issues.

[15]      Rydw i’n meddwl, yng Nghymru, rydym ni wedi cael gwasg rhanbarthol masnachol eithaf cryf erioed, ond rydw i’n meddwl, yn ogystal â phryderu am le mae pobl yn cael eu newyddion lleol, fod angen i’r pwyllgor hefyd bryderu am le mae pobl yn cael eu newyddion cenedlaethol, achos rydw i’n meddwl, fel mae Brexit wedi dangos inni, pan fo yna ryw fath o disconnect yn digwydd rhwng pobl a sefydliadau gwleidyddol, os oes yna bobl wedyn yn rhyw fath o chwythu i fyny rhyw stêm poblyddol, ‘O, fe wnawn ni gael gwared ar ryw sefydliad,’ os nad yw pobl yn teimlo cysylltiad â’r sefydliad yna, mae’n rhywbeth sy’n hawdd iawn wedyn yn mynd i wynebu’r fwyell, rydw i’n meddwl.

 

I think that, in Wales, we have had a regional commercial press that’s been quite strong for a long time, but, as well as being concerned about where people get their local news from, I think the committee needs to be concerned about where people receive their national news, because I think, as Brexit has shown us, that where there is some kind of disconnect between people and the political institutions, if people then build up a head of populist steam about some kind of political issue, ‘Oh, we’ll get rid of some institution,’ and people lose that link and connection with that institution, then it’s very easy for that institution to face the axe, I think.

[16]      Bethan Jenkins: Jest i ymateb i’ch consýrn o ran newyddion cenedlaethol, rydym ni yn mynd i fod yn edrych ar hynny hefyd, nid yn unig newyddion lleol, cymunedol. Jest i ddweud hynny. Ond, a oes sylw ychwanegol gennych chi? Roeddech chi wedi dechrau, Ifan, dweud am yr effaith ar bobl, eu bod nhw ddim yn deall datganoli, ond a oes yna effeithiau penodol eraill i Gymru rydych chi’n credu bod dirywiad newyddiaduriaeth leol wedi eu cael? Er enghraifft, mae bwrdd ymgynghori Ofcom yn dweud bod Cymru’n cael ei gwasanaethu yn llai nag ardaloedd eraill Prydain o ran radio masnachol ac yn y blaen. Felly, a oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol gennych chi i’w ddweud yn hynny o beth?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Just to respond to your concern about national news, we are going to be looking at that. It’s not just the local and community news that we’re going to be covering. I just want to make that point. But do you have any additional comments? Ifan, you started to mention the impact of people not understanding devolution, but are there any other specific issues of pertinence to Wales that the decline of local journalism has caused? The Ofcom consultative board has said that Wales is served less comprehensively than other areas of the UK in terms of commercial radio and so on. So, are there any additional points that you’d like to make in relation to that?

[17]      Dr Jones: Wel, efallai un sgil-effaith penodol sy’n dod i’r meddwl yn syth ydy’r ffaith, yn yr etholiadau lleol diweddar, y gwnaethom ni weld bod yna nifer o seddi mewn wardiau yng Nghymru lle’r oedd dim ond un ymgeisydd i fod yn y cyngor. Hefyd, rydw i’n meddwl roedd yna un ward ym Mhowys lle nad oedd yna ddim un ymgeisydd o gwbl. Rydw i’n meddwl efallai fod hynny, i ryw raddau, yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith ei bod hi’n amser o gyni ariannol. Efallai nad oes neb ishio’r job amhoblogaidd o orfod gyrru’r toriadau yma drwy’r cyngor, felly. Ac rydw i’n meddwl ei fod o hefyd, efallai, yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod yna eithaf diffyg cysylltiad rhwng pobl â’u hardaloedd lleol nhw, ac efallai bod nifer o bobl sydd ddim yn gwybod beth ydy cyfrifoldebau cyngor, pa fath o waith mae’r cyngor yn ei wneud, ac efallai fod hynny’n arwain at sefyllfa lle mae yna ddiffyg hyder gan bobl i ymgymryd â’r gwaith o ddylanwadu ar waith eu cyngor lleol nhw neu roi eu hunain ymlaen fel aelodau etholedig.

 

Dr Jones: Well, one possible side-effect that comes to mind immediately is that in the recent local elections we saw a number of seats in wards in Wales where there was only one candidate for the council. Also, I think there was one ward in Powys where there were no candidates at all. I think that, to some extent, is a reflection of the fact that it’s a time of financial austerity and perhaps people don’t want this unpopular job of enforcing cuts through the council. And it perhaps reflects the fact that there is a lack of connection between people and their local areas, and people may not know what the responsibilities of a council are and what work the council does, and perhaps that leads to a situation where people have a lack of confidence to get to grips with that work of influencing their local council or putting themselves forward as elected members.

[18]      Bethan Jenkins: Elin.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Elin.

[19]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Un o’r pethau eraill rydw i’n meddwl bod Ofcom—ac mae lot fawr o dystiolaeth wedi eich cyrraedd chi’n barod hefyd, onid oes, ynglŷn â mater plwraliaeth yn y wasg a’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru yn enwedig, a’r ddibyniaeth sydd yna ar ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus i fod yn cynhyrchu newyddion a bod hynny’n arbennig o wir yn achos newyddion yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Ac eithrio Golwg360, nid oes newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol arall lle mae newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu talu. Nid ydy hynny i ddweud nad oes yna newyddiaduraeth o safon yn digwydd mewn mannau eraill, ac mae Ifan wrth fy ochr i’n fan hyn wedi dechrau blog newyddiadurol neu newyddiaduraeth ar-lein, ond nid wyf i’n meddwl eu bod nhw wedi cyrraedd y pwynt rŵan lle maen nhw’n talu ffi broffesiynol. Felly, mae yna gwestiynau mawr ynglŷn ag a ydym ni’n disgwyl i bobl fod yn gallu gwneud gyrfa allan o fod yn newyddiadurwyr. A ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiadurwyr orfod gwneud pethau eraill hefyd? A ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiadurwyr fod yn athrawon, efallai, neu fod yn ymgynghorwyr PR, neu’n lobïwyr? Ble mae’r ffin wedyn rhwng bod yn newyddiadurwr proffesiynol sydd yn gallu edrych ar safbwyntiau yn ddiduedd, neu mor ddiduedd â beth sy’n bosibl?

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: One of the other things that I think Ofcom has mentioned, and you have received a great deal of evidence about already as a committee, is the issue of plurality in the press and media in Wales, and the reliance on public service broadcasters to be producing news, and that’s particularly true in the case of Welsh language news. With the exception of Golwg360, there is no other professional journalism where journalists are paid for their work. That’s not to say that there isn’t quality journalism happening elsewhere, and Ifan, by my side here, has established a new journalistic blog or online journalism, but I don’t think that they’ve reached the point yet where they actually pay a professional fee to their contributors. So, there are major questions as to whether we are expecting people to be able to build a career in journalism. Do we expect journalists to have to do other jobs? Do we expect journalists to be teachers, or PR consultants, or lobbyists? And then, where is that boundary between being a professional journalist who can look at views in a totally impartial way, or in as impartial a way as possible?

[20]      Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod yna bryderon yn codi ynglŷn â meddwl a ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiaduraeth fod yn broffesiwn lle mae pobl yn cael eu talu, a hefyd ynglŷn â chael amrywiaeth yn y wasg, nid jest o ran persbectifau gwleidyddol, ond hefyd o ran lle mae yna wahanol lefelau o arbenigedd mewn newyddiaduraeth. A ydym ni’n disgwyl bod yna arbenigwyr ym maes iechyd sydd yn newyddiadura yn lleol? A ydym ni’n disgwyl bod yna arbenigwyr ym maes addysg sydd yn gallu dehongli polisïau’r Llywodraeth, a pholisïau ar wahanol lefelau o lywodraeth hefyd? A ydym ni’n disgwyl bod y newyddiaduraeth yna yn gallu bod hefyd yn newyddiaduraeth sy’n canolbwyntio ar ardaloedd lleol? Rydw i’n byw yn Aberystwyth ond rydw i’n dod yn wreiddiol o ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru—sef, Delyn, fel mae’n digwydd. Rydw i’n gwybod, yn yr ardal yna, fod gennym ni newyddiaduraeth leol—mae yna newyddiaduraeth yn fanna—ond a oes yna ddigon o arbenigedd yn yr ardal yna, neu yn unrhyw ardal arall yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r gallu i edrych ar themâu penodol fel addysg, neu fel iechyd, ac edrych ar sawl lefel o bolisi? Felly, rydw i’n poeni am hynny hefyd. 

 

Then there are some concerns as to whether we are expecting journalism to be a profession where people are properly remunerated, and also in terms of having plurality in the press; it’s not just a matter of political perspectives, but also an issue of where there are different levels of expertise within journalism. Do we expect to have specialists in health who work in journalism at a local level? Do we expect to have specialists in education who could interpret government policy at all various different levels of government? Do we expect that journalism to also be journalism that focuses on localities? Now, I live in Aberystwyth, but I’m originally from the north-east of Wales—Delyn as it happens. I know that, in that area, yes, we do have local journalism—there is journalism there—but is there the expertise in that area, or in any other area of Wales, in terms of the ability to look at a specific theme, such as health or education, and look at the various levels of policy? So, I’m very concerned about that, too.

[21]      Dr Jones: Fel rhywun sy’n dod o gefndir newyddiadurol, rydw i wedi gweld effeithiau diffyg adnoddau i fedru ymchwilio yn effeithiol i straeon newyddion. Rydw i’n meddwl, bron a bod, fod ein gwasg ni yn lleol, ac yn genedlaethol i raddau rŵan, ac yn rhanbarthol, yn troi mewn i ryw fath o lwyfan ar gyfer datganiadau i’r wasg. Yr unig blwraliaeth sydd yna o fewn ein gwasg, mewn gwirionedd, ydy, os ydy un ochr o’r stori wedi cyhoeddi datganiad ac ochr arall y stori wedi cyhoeddi datganiad hefyd, efallai rhywle yn y canol fod gennych chi’r ddwy ochr i’r stori. Nid ydy hi’n sefyllfa lle mae’r newyddiadurwyr yn gallu mynd allan gyda’u hadnoddau newyddiadurol a’u llygaid ei hunan, wedyn, i ddarganfod lle mae’r gwirionedd. Y cyfan maen nhw’n gallu ei wneud ydy bod gennych chi ryw system adversarial, bron a bod mewn llys, lle mae gennych chi’r case for the defence a’r case for the prosecution yn mynd benben â’i gilydd.

 

Dr Jones: As someone who comes from a journalistic background, I’ve seen the effects of a lack of resources to be able to investigate news stories effectively. I think that our local press and national press, to some extent, and our regional press, are turning into some kind of platform for press statements. The only plurality that we have in our press is that if one side of the story has published a press release and then the other side of the story also publishes a press release, you may have both sides of that story somewhere in the middle. We don’t have a situation where the journalists can go out and use their own resources and their own eyes to find out where the truth lies. All that they can do at present is that you have some kind of adversarial system, almost like a court, where you have the case for the defence and the case for the prosecution going head to head.

[22]      O ran arbenigedd, pan wnes i ddechrau, pan oeddwn i’n graddio o’r brifysgol ac yn mynd ar brofiad gwaith i lefydd fel y Western Mail ac yn y blaen, mi oedd gennych chi ohebwyr a oedd efo rhyw fath o patch neu efo rhyw fath o friff penodol, bryd hynny. Nid ydw i’n siŵr i ba raddau mae hynny’n wir erbyn hyn. Er enghraifft, rydym ni’n gweld yn y Daily Post fod yr un person yn adrodd ar newyddion y Cynulliad a’r newyddion traffig—a ydy’r A55 ar gau y diwrnod hwnnw, a rhyw broblemau fel yna. Felly, i fynd nôl at y diffyg democratiaeth yna, mae rhywbeth fel yna yn achosi problemau mawr. O’m profiad i fel newyddiadurwr, un diwrnod roeddwn i’n ysgrifennu straeon am beth oedd yn mynd ymlaen mewn pwyllgorau fel hyn, a’r hanner awr wedyn roeddwn i’n ysgrifennu adroddiad ar griced a beth oedd yn mynd ymlaen yng Ngerddi Sophia. Roedd gen i lot mwy o arbenigedd yn y Cynulliad nag oedd gen i yn y criced, mae’n rhaid i mi gyfaddef. Ond dyna’r math o bwysau mae’n newyddiadurwyr ni oddi dano fo. Mae’n mynd yn system bron a bod yn rhyw fath o beiriant sosej, lle maen nhw jest yn ‘churn-io’ straeon allan, un ar ôl y llall, drwy’r dydd, heb unrhyw amser i godi’r ffôn heb sôn am adael eu desgiau a mynd allan a chyfweld â phobl wyneb yn wyneb.

 

In terms of the expertise, even when I started, when I graduated from university and went on work experience to places like the Western Mail and so on, you had correspondents who had a patch or a specific brief, at that time. I don’t know to what extent that is true today. For example, you see in the Daily Post that the same person reports on Assembly news and on traffic news—whether the A55 is closed on that particular day, and problems like that. So, to go back to that democratic deficit, something like that does cause major problems. From my experience as a journalist, one day I was writing stories about what was going on in committees like this, and then half an hour later I was writing reports on the cricket match at Sophia Gardens. I had a great deal more expertise in the Assembly rather than the cricket, I have to say. But that’s the kind of pressure that our journalists are under. The system is almost turning into a kind of sausage factory where they just churn these stories out, one after the other, day after day, without ever having the time to pick up the phone, never mind leaving their desks to meet people face to face.

 

[23]      Felly, rydw i’n meddwl, yn ogystal â’r cwestiwn ‘A ydym ni’n gallu talu newyddiadurwyr?’, mae hefyd y cwestiwn o ‘Faint o newyddiadurwyr a ydym ni’n gallu eu talu?’ Os ydyn nhw lawr i’r esgyrn erbyn hyn, efo rhyw fath o skeleton crew yn rhedeg ein papurau lleol a rhanbarthol a chenedlaethol, rydym ni mewn sefyllfa wedyn lle nad ydy’r newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol bwysig yna yn cael ei gwneud.

 

So, I think, as well as the question of whether we can pay journalists, there’s the question of how many journalists we can pay. If they’re down to the bare bones, with some sort of skeleton staff running our regional and national papers, we’re in a situation where that important investigatory journalism isn’t being done.

 

[24]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at Hannah nawr, felly efallai y bydd cwestiynau am Delyn. [Chwerthin.]

 

Bethan Jenkins: Okay. We’re going to move on to Hannah now, so some questions about Delyn, possibly. [Laughter.]

 

[25]      Hannah Blythyn: Thanks, Chair. I don’t know if that was trying to persuade me to be really nice in my questions now. [Laughter.] I’m friendly anyway.

 

09:45

 

[26]      You’ve already, in the opening, touched quite a bit on the decline in traditional commercial print news, and the parallel increase in hyper-local news. You’ve touched on it quite a bit, but if you could expand a little bit on the extent to which that can mitigate the decline in traditional news. I’m particularly keen to hear whether there are ways, with better support, that that can address the democratic deficit we’re talking about as well.

 

[27]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Fe wnaf i fynd gyntaf. Fe wnaf i ateb yn Gymraeg, achos fy mod i’n cael defnyddio’r iaith Gymraeg yn y fan yma. Mae’r model economaidd sydd wedi bod yn cynnal newyddiaduraeth yn y wasg dros yr ugeinfed ganrif, i bob pwrpas, wedi torri erbyn hyn, ac mae hynny yn golygu bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl sut yr ydym ni’n gallu cynnal newyddiaduraeth fel proffesiwn, a chynnal cylchrediad a chyrraedd pobl, a dod â gwybodaeth i bobl, a thrafod y wybodaeth yna hefyd. Mae’n golygu bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl mewn ffyrdd gwahanol.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Okay, I’ll go first on that. I’ll answer in Welsh, since I do have the opportunity to do so here. The economic model that has sustained press journalism over the twentieth century, to all intents and purposes, is broken now, and that means that we do have to consider how we can sustain journalism as a profession, and sustain circulation and reach people, and bring information to people, and discuss that information, too. It does mean that we have to think in new and different ways.

[28]      Nid yw pobl wedi stopio darllen ar hyn o bryd. Fel rydym yn gwybod, mae pobl yn darllen yn fwy aml yn ddyddiol, ac yn darllen ffynonellau sydd yn cael eu cyflwyno iddyn nhw fel newyddiaduraeth, ac yn cael eu cyflwyno iddyn nhw fel newyddion. Felly, mae’r appetite neu mae’r ysfa i gael gwybodaeth ac i gael darllen ac i gael mynd at y cyfryngau a’r newyddion yn dal yna. Ond beth sy’n rhaid i ni fod yn glir ynglŷn ag o, wrth i ni drio datblygu modelau newydd, ydy ein bod ni ddim yn ddibynnol ar ddim ond unigolion, gwirfoddolwyr a phobl sydd ddim yn cael eu talu i gynhyrchu hwn, a bod yna ddim buddsoddiad yn mynd i mewn i sut ydym ni’n gallu cael model lle mae yna broffesiwn newyddiadurol yn bodoli. Felly, tra rydym yn gallu defnyddio unigolion, pobl, dinasyddion, ac yn y blaen, i hwyluso cylchredeg y newyddion neu gylchredeg straeon neu gylchredeg gwybodaeth drwy eu tudalennau Facebook a Twitter, ac yn y blaen ac yn y blaen, mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl ynglŷn â sut ydym ni yn cynhyrchu yr wybodaeth a’r straeon yn y lle cyntaf.

 

People haven’t stopped reading. As we know, people are reading more often on a daily basis, and are reading sources that are presented to them as journalism, and sources that are presented to them as news. Therefore, the appetite to access information and to read information and to access journalism and the news is still there. But what we have to be clear about, as we try to develop new models, is that we don’t become reliant on individuals, volunteers and people who are unpaid producing this material, and that there is no investment going into how we can deliver a model where you have a journalistic profession. So, whilst we can use individuals and citizens in order to facilitate the circulation of news or the circulation of stories or information through their Facebook or Twitter feeds, and so on and so forth, we also have to think about how we produce that information and those stories in the first place.

[29]      Dr Jones: Mae gen i bryderon mawr ynglŷn â gallu newyddion hyper-lleol i gymryd lle newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol. Os ydych chi’n meddwl am newyddiadurwyr ar bapurau newydd, er enghraifft, fe fyddan nhw wedi cael hyfforddiant mewn pethau fel llywodraeth leol, byddant wedi cael hyfforddiant mewn pethau fel enllib, dirmyg llys, ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae’n anodd iawn os nad oes gennych y sgiliau craidd yna—wedi cael eich gyrru i ffwrdd ar gwrs, efallai, i ddysgu’r sgiliau yma—mae’n anodd iawn wedyn i chi fedru torri straeon. Os nad ydych chi’n gwybod y gyfraith, er enghraifft, yn ymwneud efo enllib neu ddirmyg llys, sut ydych chi’n mynd i wybod os ydych chi’n cael cyhoeddi stori ai peidio? Sut ydych chi’n gwybod beth sydd yn gyfreithlon? Sut ydych chi’n gwybod os ydych chi’n cael adrodd ar gynnwys cyfarfod cyhoeddus, er enghraifft, neu ddatganiad i’r wasg mewn cynhadledd i’r wasg gan yr heddlu?

 

Dr Jones: I have major concerns about the ability of hyper-local news to take the place of professional journalism. When you think about the journalists on a newspaper, for example, they will have had training in such things as local government, they’ll be trained in libel, contempt of court, and so on. So, it’s very difficult if you don’t have those core skills—you may have been sent on a course to learn those skills—then it’s very difficult for you to break stories. If you don’t know the law, for example, relating to libel or contempt of court, then you won’t know whether you can publish a story or not. How will you know whether it’s legal? How will you be able to report on the contents of a public meeting, for example, or a press release in a police press conference?

[30]      Felly, mae gen i bryderon mawr iawn bod y newyddion hyper-lleol yn mynd i allu camu mewn i’r blwch, ac nid yn unig oherwydd yr adnoddau. Mae nifer o’r bobl sy’n ymwneud â newyddion hyper-lleol yn bobl sydd efo swyddi llawn amser ar yr un pryd, ac nid oes ganddyn nhw yr amser i fynd i ddigwyddiadau, nid oes ganddyn nhw yr amser i fuddsoddi mewn newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol yn yr un modd ag y byddai tîm da o newyddiadurwyr proffesiynol, gobeithio, efo. Mae yna gwestiynau ynglŷn â’r materion o ran pa mor ddiduedd mae newyddiadurwyr hyper-lleol yn mynd i fod hefyd, achos fel arfer maen nhw yn mynd i fod yn gwneud y gwaith yn wirfoddol. Mae pobl sy’n gwneud y gwaith yn wirfoddol fel arfer yn gwneud hynny oherwydd rhesymau yn ymwneud â rhyw duedd wleidyddol. Er enghraifft, mae yna gwpwl o flogiau rwy’n eu dilyn yn yr ardal rwy’n byw ynddi yn ne-orllewin Cymru sydd yn gwneud job da iawn o roi gwybod i mi beth sy’n mynd ymlaen yn yr ardaloedd yna, fel yng Nghyngor Sir Gâr, er enghraifft, ond y broblem ydy eu bod nhw fel arfer yn flogiau pleidiol y naill ffordd neu’r llall. Mae yna ryw agenda wleidyddol ynddyn nhw beth bynnag, ac maen nhw’n tueddu i ganolbwyntio eu dryll i gyfeiriad y pleidiau nad ydynt yn cytuno efo nhw. Felly, mae yna lot o gwestiynau ynglŷn ag amser, adnoddau ac arbenigedd mewn pethau fel dirmyg llys ac enllib, ac yn y blaen, ac hefyd ar ben hynny yr ymateb pleidiol yma, sef bod lot o bobl sy’n mynd i fod eisiau gwneud y gwaith yma’n wirfoddol ddim yn mynd i’w wneud o allan o the goodness of their heart, mewn ffordd. Maen nhw’n mynd i’w wneud o am eu bod nhw eisiau dylanwadu ar y drafodaeth gyhoeddus sydd yn mynd ymlaen yr un pryd.

 

So, I do have major concerns that hyper-local news isn’t going to be able to step up to the mark, and not just with regard to the resources. Many people involved in hyper-local news also have full-time jobs at the same time, and they don’t have time to go to events, they don’t have the time to invest in investigative journalism in the way that a good team of professional journalists would, hopefully. There are questions about issues with regard to the impartiality of hyper-local journalists, because usually they’re going to be volunteers, and people who undertake this work voluntarily usually do so because of reasons relating to some kind of political motivation. For example, there are some blogs that I follow in the area in which I live in south-west Wales that do a very good job of letting me know what’s happening in those areas, such as in Carmarthenshire County Council, for example, but the problem is that they’re party political blogs one way or the other. There is a political agenda there, and they tend to focus on those particular parties and the failings of those parties that they don’t agree with. So, there is a question about the time, the resources and the expertise in such issues as libel, contempt of court, and so on, and on top of that there’s this partiality as well, that people who want to do this work voluntarily aren’t just going to do it out of the goodness of their heart in a way. They’re going to be doing it for the reason that they want to influence the public discourse.

[31]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you.

[32]      Hannah Blythyn: I think you covered my other question.

 

[33]      Bethan Jenkins: Jest cwestiwn clou. Rwy’n credu bod Elin wedi siarad am hyn yn gynharach. A allwch chi jest esbonio tipyn bach ynglŷn â’ch gwefan newydd, Nation.Cymru? Sut ydych chi wedi mynd ati i sefydlu honno? A oes arian wedi bod y tu ôl i hynny, neu a ydy e’n hollol wirfoddol ar hyn o bryd?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Just a brief question. I think that Elin mentioned this earlier. Can you just explain a little more about your new website Nation.Cymru? How have you gone about establishing that? Has there been some funding behind it, or is this all entirely voluntary at present?

[34]      Dr Jones: Wel, mae’n wefan wirfoddol. Beth wnaethom ni oedd, oherwydd nad oes gwasanaeth newyddion cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, y pryder oedd gen i, a sawl un arall, oedd, o ran y math o drafodaeth genedlaethol sy’n mynd rhagddi yn Gymraeg drwy wefannau fel Golwg 360, BBC Cymru Fyw, Barn ac yn y blaen, nad oes yr un math o drafodaeth genedlaethol yn digwydd yn Saesneg, a bod hynny’n cyfrannu at y diffyg democrataidd sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd. Felly, y bwriad oedd sefydlu gwasanaeth newyddion cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, a fyddai’n cael ei redeg ddim er elw. Rwy’n meddwl mai rhan o’r broblem gyda nifer o’r papurau masnachol sy’n cael eu cynnal gan Trinity Mirror, er enghraifft, yw eu bod nhw’n gorfod cynhyrchu lot fawr o arian ar gyfer eu shareholders. Felly, drwy greu rhywbeth dim er elw, er enghraifft, o leiaf byddai unrhyw arian a fyddai’n dod allan o’r peth yn cael ei fuddsoddi’n syth nôl mewn i’r newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol.

 

Dr Jones: Well, it is a voluntary website. What we did was, because there’s a lack of a national news service in English, the concern that I had, and several others, in terms of the kind of national debate that’s being had in Welsh, through websites such as Golwg 360, BBC Cymru Fyw and Barn and so on, was that there wasn’t perhaps that same kind of debate happening in English, and that contributes to the democratic deficit that we currently have. So, the intention was to establish a news service on a national basis in English that would be run as a not-for-profit concern. I think that part of the problem that we have with the several of the commercial newspapers that we have under Trinity Mirror, for example, is that they have to generate a lot of money for their shareholders. So, by creating something that was not-for-profit, at least, any kind of money derived from it would be reinvested back into investigative journalism.

[35]      Y bwriad oedd lansio’r wefan yma tua diwedd yr haf, pan fydd tymor y Cynulliad yn ailddechrau, ond, yn sgil cyhoeddi’r etholiad cyffredinol, dyma ni’n penderfynu y byddai hynny’n amser da i wthio’r cwch i’r dŵr, er mwyn cymryd mantais o’r holl ddiddordeb gwleidyddol fyddai yno ar y pryd. Mae e wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus. Rydym ni eisoes wedi cael dros 1,000 o bobl yn ein dilyn ar Facebook, ac, ers lansio bythefnos yn ôl, mae dros 45,000 o bobl wedi ymweld â’r safle. Felly, mae’r ymateb wedi bod yn dda iawn hyd yma. Mi wnaethom ni godi, rhwng mis Ionawr a rŵan, ryw £4,500 drwy bobl yn rhoi rhoddion tuag at y wefan yma. Mae’n dipyn o arian ac yn dangos bod yna deimladau cryf yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r diffyg gwasanaethau newyddion cenedlaethol sydd yng Nghymru. Ond mae hefyd yn amlwg yn ffigwr rhy fach i fedru cyflogi newyddiadurwyr. Rwy’n meddwl bydd angen o leiaf ryw £75,000 er mwyn gallu cyflogi newyddiadurwyr i weithio’n broffesiynol ar y safle. Ond beth rydym ni’n gobeithio’i wneud yw, o’r arian yna nad ydym yn ei wario ar ffurfwedd y wefan, a chreu’r feddalwedd, ac yn y blaen, sydd y tu cefn i’r wefan, rydym ni wedyn yn buddsoddi efo’r newyddiaduraeth freelance, a rhoi’r cyfle i newyddiadurwyr freelance ymchwilio mewn i faterion yn ymwneud â gwleidyddiaeth Cymru, a’r Cynulliad, a llywodraeth leol, ac yn blaen, mewn rhagor o fanylder.

 

The intention was to launch this website towards the end of the summer, when the Assembly reconvenes, but, as a result of the announcement of the snap general election, we decided it was a good time to launch the site, because of the level of political interest at that time. It’s been very successful. We’ve already had over 1,000 people following us on Facebook, and, since launching a fortnight ago, more than 45,000 people have visited the site. So, the response has been very good so far. Between January and now, we’ve raised around £4,500 through donations to the website. It’s a significant amount of money, which shows that there are strong feelings in Wales about the lack of national news services in Wales. But it’s also too small a figure to be able to employ journalists. I think we’d need at least £75,000 to be able to employ journalists to work professionally on the site. But what we hope to do is to use the funds that we don’t use on the website itself, and the development of the software, and so on, behind the sites, by investing them in freelance journalists, and to give those journalists the opportunity to investigate issues relating to politics in Wales, the Assembly, local government, and so on, in more detail.

[36]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Ac mi wnes i ddwyn cwestiwn Dai, sori, felly, a oes mwy o gwestiynau? [Chwerthin.]

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. And I stole Dai’s question, so I do apologise. Do you have any further questions? [Laughter.]

 

[37]      Dai Lloyd: Roedd hi’n anrhydedd eich clywed chi’n ei gyflwyno mewn modd mor ddeheuig, Gadeirydd. [Chwerthin.]

 

Dai Lloyd: It was an honour to see you express it so skilfully, Chair. [Laughter.]

[38]      Bethan Jenkins: Dai, plis caria mlaen gyda’r cwestiynu. [Chwerthin.]

 

Bethan Jenkins: Please continue with your questions, Dai. [Laughter.]

[39]      Dai Lloyd: Roedd gyda fi ddiddordeb yn beth roeddet ti’n ei ddweud, ac rwyt ti wedi ei nodi yn dy bapur di hefyd, ynglŷn â’r ffaith mai ychydig o gymhelliad sydd i wirfoddolwyr adrodd mewn ffordd sydd yn niwtral yn wleidyddol. Felly, yn dilyn o’r gosodiad yna—a newyddiaduraeth hyperleol ydy hynny, yn naturiol—a ydy’r system yn wahanol efo’r wasg fasnachol? A ydych chi’n credu bod y wasg fasnachol allan fanna yn niwtral yn wleidyddol? Buaswn i’n fodlon dadlau i’r gwrthwyneb yn fanna, ond rwyf i jest yn rhoi y gosodiad yna gerbron. Os ydych chi eisiau dweud bod pobl sydd yn newyddiadura yn dra lleol felly yn mynd i fod yn wleidyddol ragfarnllyd mewn ffordd, byddwn i’n fodlon dadlau bod pob newyddiaduraeth yn wleidyddol ragfarnllyd. Rwyf i jest yn rhoi hynny allan fan yna i chi gael ateb.

 

Dai Lloyd: I was interested in what you said, and which you noted in your paper also, about the fact that there is little encouragement for volunteers to report in a way that is politically neutral. So, following on from that point, which, of course, relates to hyperlocal journalism, is the system different with the commercial press? Do you think that the commercial press out there is politically neutral? I would perhaps say not, but I’m just putting that forward. If you are saying that people who are involved in hyperlocal journalism are going to be politically biased in some way, well I would argue that all journalism has some sort of political bias. I’m just chucking that out there for you.

[40]      Dr Jones: Buaswn i’n dadlau ei bod hi’n amhosib cynhyrchu newyddiaduraeth sydd ddim yn rhagfarnllyd. Mewn ffordd, rydych chi’n gallu ysgrifennu stori newyddion mewn ffordd sydd yn ymddangosiadol ddiduedd, ond, yn y pen draw, rydych chi’n gorfod penderfynu beth mae’r stori amdano, rydych chi’n gorfod penderfynu pa ffeithiau rydych chi’ mynd i’w cynnwys, rydych chi’n gorfod penderfynu ym mha drefn mae’r ffeithiau. Rwy’n gwybod bod lot yn dadlau, ar hyn o bryd, fod y wasg fasnachol, ddim yn gwbl—. Mae’r geiriau bias a fake news yma yn cael eu taflu o gwmpas lot. Mae hynny’n wir yn amlwg yn achos rhai papurau. Nid wyf i’n meddwl y buasai unrhyw un yn edrych ar dudalen flaen y Daily Express a’r Daily Mail, er enghraifft, neu’r Daily Mirror, a dadlau nad oes tuedd amlwg wleidyddol yna. Ac mae hynny hefyd yn arwydd o wendid masnachol y wasg, oherwydd beth sy’n digwydd erbyn hyn ydy, oherwydd bod papurau newydd yn llai hyfyw yn fasnachol, yr unig bobl sy’n mynd i fod yn berchen ar bapurau newydd ydy pobl sydd eisiau eu defnyddio nhw fel rhyw fath o geg offeryn er mwyn cael eu safbwynt nhw allan.

 

Dr Jones: I would argue that it’s impossible to generate journalism that doesn’t have some kind of bias, because you could write a news story in way that appears to be impartial, but, ultimately, you do have to decide what the story is about, you have to decide which facts you’re going to include, and in what order those facts appear. I know that many people argue at present that the commercial press is not—. You have the words ‘bias’ and ‘fake news’ being bandied about a lot. That’s obviously true in the case of some newspapers. If you look at the front page of the Daily Express and the Daily Mail or the Daily Mirror, you couldn’t argue that there wasn’t a kind of obvious political bias there. But that’s also a sign of the commercial weakness of the press, because what happens now is that, because newspapers are less commercially viable, the only people who are going to own newspapers are the people who want to use them as a kind of mouthpiece to get their point of view out there.

[41]      O ran darlledu, rwy’n cytuno bod yna rhywfaint o duedd o fewn, er enghraifft, y BBC, ond rwy’n meddwl fod y duedd yna oherwydd o le y mae’r newyddion yn dod mewn gwirionedd, ac mae newyddiadurwyr yn naturiol yn mynd i gyfeiriad y sefydliadau gwleidyddol sydd yn cynhyrchu lot o newyddion iddyn nhw yn eithaf rhwydd. Felly, rwy’n meddwl, er enghraifft, os ydych chi’n edrych ar y ffaith fod gennym ni broblem yng Nghymru bod y newyddion yn San Steffan yn cael lot mawr iawn o sylw tra bo newyddion o’r Senedd, er enghraifft, ddim, rwy’n meddwl bod hynny oherwydd bod corfforaethau fel y BBC i raddau wedi adeiladu eu hunain o gwmpas y sefydliadau sydd yn rhoi lot fawr o newyddion iddyn nhw. Er enghraifft, roedd yna ddadl yn yr Alban ar driniaeth y BBC o refferendwm annibyniaeth yr Alban a bod yna lot o duedd yn fanna, ond rwy’n meddwl fod hynny yn fwy i wneud efo’r ffaith fod holl newyddiadurwyr gorau’r BBC yn San Steffan yn chwilio am straeon yn fanna achos dyna’r ffynhonnell straeon orau a oedd yn cyrraedd mwy o’r boblogaeth ac a oedd yn fwy perthnasol i boblogaeth y Deyrnas Unedig.

 

In terms of broadcasting, I agree that there is some kind of bias within, for example, the BBC, but I think that bias is there because of where the news is coming from, and journalists will naturally gravitate towards the political institutions that generate a great deal of news for them relatively easily. So, I think, for example, if you look at the fact that we have an issue in Wales that the news at Westminster receives a great deal of attention, whereas the news from the Senedd doesn’t, I think that that is the result of the fact that corporations such as the BBC have built themselves around the institutions that generate a great deal of news for them. For example, there was a debate in Scotland on the BBC's treatment of the Scottish independence referendum and that there was a great deal of bias there, but I think that was more to do with the fact that all the best BBC journalists were based in Westminster and that was the best source of news and information that was reaching more of the population and was more pertinent to the population of the United Kingdom. 

[42]      Felly, nid wyf i’n meddwl bod yna duedd bwriadol o fewn sefydliadau fel y BBC. Rwy’n meddwl ei fod jest yn dod o’r ffaith bod y sefydliadau newyddiadurol wedi adeiladu eu hunain o gwmpas y sefydliadau gwleidyddol oherwydd bod y Deyrnas Unedig yn wlad sydd wedi ei chanoli’n wleidyddol i’r fath raddau ei bod yn anochel wedyn fod yna rhyw fath o dwll du y mae’r holl newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu sugno tuag ato fo, felly. Felly, buaswn i’n cytuno, ac nid wyf yn dadlau am eiliad bod y newyddiaduraeth fasnachol, neu sydd wedi cael ei hariannu’n gyhoeddus yn y Deyrnas Unedig, yn ddiduedd. Rwyf i jest yn meddwl, efo’r newyddion hyperleol, fod hyd yn oed llai o gymhelliad i fod yn ddiduedd. Beth rydych chi’n ei gael ydy twf pethau fel rydym ni wedi’u gweld yn yr Unol Daleithiau, fel Breitbart News, sef gwasanaethau newyddion wedi eu sefydlu’n gyfan gwbl er mwyn gwthio agenda rhyw ochr wleidyddol neu ryw blaid wleidyddol.

 

Therefore, I do not think that there is a deliberate tendency within organisations such as the BBC. I think it's just down to the fact that the journalistic institutions have built themselves around the political institutions because the United Kingdom is a country that has been centralised politically to such an extent that it is inevitable then that there is some kind of black hole that all of the journalists are being sucked into. So, I would agree, and I wouldn’t argue for a second that commercial journalism or publicly funded journalism in the United Kingdom is unbiased. But I think that, with hyperlocal news, there is even less incentive to be impartial. What you get is the growth of things as we’ve seen in the United States, sites such as Breitbart News, namely news services that have been established solely to push the agenda of a political side or a political party.

[43]      Os ydych chi’n meddwl am paham wnaeth y Blaid Lafur gystal yn yr etholiad sydd newydd fod, os ydych chi’n edrych ar ddylanwad gwefannau fel The Canary a Skuawk Box, a rhyw bethau fel yna ar Facebook, roedd y gwefannau hyn yn cyrraedd miliynau o bobl. Nid oeddwn i’n dilyn un o’r gwefannau yma, ond roeddent yn ymddangos yn gyson yn fy ffrwd newyddiadurol oherwydd bod fy ffrindiau i yn y eu rhannu nhw’n gyson ac yn meddwl eu bod nhw’n ffynonellau dibynadwy a di-duedd ar gyfer y newyddion. Felly, rwy’n meddwl, pan fydd newyddion yn mynd yn wirfoddol, rydym ni wedyn yn gweld sefyllfa lle efallai—. Mae’n iach i raddau oherwydd, trwy gael nifer fawr o safleoedd gyda thuedd ar-lein, efallai ei fod o’n dadwneud rhywfaint o’r duedd mwy tuag at yr ochr adain dde sydd yn y wasg fasnachol a’r papurau newydd Prydeinig felly. Ond y broblem wedyn ydy eich bod chi’n cael rhyw fath o siambrau atsain yn datblygu a bod yn hollol gyndyn mai nhw sydd yn gywir oherwydd mai dim ond un safbwynt ar y newyddion y maen nhw’n ei gael gan y ffynhonnell newyddion y maen nhw wedi’i dewis.

 

If you think about why the Labour Party did so well in the recent election, if you look at the influence of websites such as The Canary and Skuawk Box, and others on Facebook, those websites reached millions of people. I didn’t follow any of those sites, but they did appear frequently in my news stream because my friends were sharing them and thought that they were dependable and impartial sources of news. So, I think that, when news does turn into a voluntary concern, then I think we see a situation where—.  It’s healthy to some extent because, by having a great many online sites with perhaps their bias and a particular line, then that might undo somewhat the tendency more towards the right wing in the commercial press and the UK newspapers. But the problem then is that you get echo chambers developing and people are convinced that they’re right because they’ve only heard one point of view from the news source that they’ve chosen.

[44]      Bethan Jenkins: Elin.

 

[45]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Jest i ychwanegu’n fyr iawn ynglŷn â didueddrwydd, rydym ni’n gyfarwydd efo’r model traddodiadol bod y didueddrwydd yn y cyfryngau darlledu i fod i gael ei gynnal, yn sicr, ar draws cyfres o raglenni neu o fewn rhaglen benodol ei hun, onid ydym? Felly, mae gennym ni fodel sydd yn rhoi cyfrifoldeb ar gynhyrchydd y newyddion i roi didueddrwydd i mewn, p’un a ydym ni’n meddwl bod hynny’n gweithio’n effeithiol bob tro neu beidio. Mae hynny i ryw raddau yn fater arall, ond dyna ydy’r egwyddor sydd efo newyddiaduriaeth ddarlledu yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: If I could just briefly add to that, in terms of impartiality, we are familiar with the traditional model where impartiality in the broadcast media is to be maintained certainly across a series of programmes or within specific individual programmes, aren’t we? So, we have a model that places the responsibility on the news producer to provide impartiality, whether or not we think that always works effectively. That, to a certain extent, is another issue, but that is the principle in terms of broadcast journalism in the UK.

[46]      Tra, wrth gwrs, efo’r wasg brint, nid ydy’r gofyniad yna yno o gwbl, ac, wrth gwrs, beth ydym ni’n ei weld wedyn ydy mai’r safbwyntiau gwleidyddol yna sydd efo’r modd i gyrraedd yr arian angenrheidiol neu’r adnoddau angenrheidiol i gynnal a chreu gwasg ydy’r safbwyntiau gwleidyddol yna sydd wedyn yn gallu creu papurau dyddiol a chreu penawdau dyddiol yn brint, ond hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n mynd i mewn i’r byd digidol.

 

Whereas, with the print media, that requirement simply doesn’t exist, and what we then see is that it is those political views that have the means to access the necessary funds or the necessary resource to create and maintain a press that appear in daily newspapers and generate print headlines, and, of course, that also filters through into the digital environment.

10:00

 

[47]      Felly, un o’r cwestiynau, efallai, ydy ystyried, wel, ocê, mae yna draddodiad o ddidueddrwydd, bwriad o ddidueddrwydd, yn y cyfryngau darlledu, ond dim traddodiad o ddidueddrwydd yn y cyfryngau print. Ond, pan fydd popeth yn dod at ei gilydd, fel y mae wedi gwneud ers y 10 i 15 mlynedd diwethaf yma, yna, ble mae’r ffiniau yna i’r person sy’n defnyddio’r cyfryngau, onid e, a’r person sy’n eu darllen? A ydy’r newyddion cytbwys sydd i fod i gael ei gyflwyno drwy’r BBC ac ITV ac yn y blaen, a Sky hefyd wrth gwrs, i fod wedyn i eistedd ochr yn ochr â newyddion sydd ddim yn cael ei gyflwyno mewn ffordd gytbwys a heb unrhyw fwriad i’w gyflwyno yn gytbwys? Ond mae’r darllenydd yn edrych ar bopeth ar yr un pryd a ddim o angenrheidrwydd yn gwahaniaethu bod ‘hwn’ wedi cael ei gynhyrchu mewn system ddiduedd a bod ‘hwn’ wedi cael ei gynhyrchu mewn system sydd yn dweud yn glir iawn nad ydyn nhw’n ddiduedd, onid e? A ydy’r eglurder yna yn dod drwodd yn ddigonol?

 

So, one of the questions, perhaps, is to consider, well, okay, there is a tradition of impartiality, an intention to be impartial, in the broadcast media, but there is no such tradition in the print media. But, when everything comes together, as it has done over the past 10 to 15 years, then where are those lines for those people using that material and reading that material? Is the balanced news that is supposed to be provided through the BBC and ITV and so on, as well as Sky of course, supposed to then sit alongside news that is not presented in a balanced way, but is presented without any intention of providing any impartiality? But the consumer looks at all of these things simultaneously and does not differentiate between one thing that has been produced within rules of impartiality and another that says very clearly that it is not impartial. Is that clarity available to the consumer?

[48]      Beth ydy’r entry level i fynd i mewn i greu papur? Pan wyf i’n dweud ‘papur’, nid wyf i’n sôn am bapur, yn amlwg; rwy’n sôn am newyddiaduriaeth, neu bapurau newydd, neu ffynonellau newyddion—newyddion chwaraeon, newyddion diwylliannol a newyddion gwleidyddol. A ydy’r entry level yna yn gallu cymell, ddywedwn ni, rywun fel Ifan, neu bobl o wahanol safbwyntiau eraill, i fedru mynd i mewn i’r farchnad yna i greu, i gyfrannu at y plwraliaeth sydd gennym ni? Achos nid ydy’r plwraliaeth yn mynd i gael ei greu drwy fod un papur newydd yn penderfynu, ‘O, rydym ni am fod yn fwy cytbwys’, nac ydy? Mae’r plwraliaeth yn mynd i fod oherwydd bod yna fwy o leisiau yn cyrraedd y lle marchnad yna.

 

What is the entry level in terms of creating a paper? When I use the word ‘paper’, I’m not just talking about hard copy; I’m talking about journalism, or newspapers, or news sources—of sports news, cultural news and political news, published in all sorts of ways. Is that entry-level encouraging people, say, such as Ifan, or people from different backgrounds and views, to go into that market in order to contribute to the plurality that we have? Because the plurality isn’t going to be generated by having one paper deciding, ‘Well, we’re going to be more balanced’, is it? You get that plurality because there are more voices contributing to that marketplace.

[49]      A ydy’r entry level yn rhy uchel? Mae rhai ohonoch chi efallai yn gwybod, ynglŷn â fy nghefndir i, fy mod i wedi bod yn rhan o’r cwmni a oedd yn trio sefydlu papur dyddiol yn yr iaith Gymraeg dros—wel, pryd gwnaethom ni gychwyn? Tua 1999 neu rywbeth fel yna y gwnaethom ni gychwyn arno fo fel prosiect ymchwil i weld pa mor bosibl a hyfyw y byddai fo, a beth oedd y modelau a oedd yn digwydd mewn gwledydd eraill. Ac, yn ystod y cyfnod yna, tra oeddem ni’n trio rhoi cwmni poblogaidd at ei gilydd, gyda chyfranddaliadau eang, gwnaethom ni lwyddo i godi tua £350,000-£375,000 mewn arian cyfalaf, a swm tipyn yn llai wedyn mewn arian refeniw, i drio dod â phobl at ei gilydd i drio cyrraedd yr entry level yna, i drio gwneud ymgais o ddifrif.

 

Now, is the entry level too high? Well, some of you will know, perhaps, about my background, that I was part of the company that strived to establish a Welsh language daily newspaper, over—. When did we start that? I think it was around 1999 that we started that research project to see how viable and possible it would be, and what were the models in other nations. And, during that period, while we were trying to put a company together with a broad range of shareholders, we managed to raise around £350,000-£375,000 in capital funds, and a smaller amount in revenue, in order to try and bring people together to reach that entry-level, to make a serious attempt at establishing a newspaper.

[50]      Felly, mae’r lefel, sef faint o gyfalaf sydd ei angen arnoch chi i ddechrau rhywbeth lle y byddwch chi maes o law yn mynd i allu talu newyddiadurwyr yn uchel iawn, iawn, iawn. Ac felly, mae hynny’n un o’r problemau, rydw i’n meddwl, ynglŷn â sut i gael gwahanol leisiau yn y byd newyddiadurol.

 

So, the level of capital required in order to start something where, in due course, you’ll be able to pay journalists is very high indeed. And that’s one of the problems, I think, in terms of how you bring different voices into journalism.

[51]      A gaf i ddweud un peth byr iawn? Mae’n ddrwg gen i. Ynglŷn â’r hyperleol, beth ydw i wedi bod yn ei weld sydd yn digwydd mewn gwlad arall, Gwlad y Basg, yn y cyfnod diweddar, neu yn y pump i saith mlynedd diwethaf, ydy tra bo’r byd, fel petai, yn sôn mwy a mwy am yr hyperleol yn y cyfnod yna, beth sydd wedi digwydd i’w gwasg nhw yn fanna ydy eu bod nhw wedi mynd o’r hyperleol fel y buasem ni’n meddwl amdano fo, fel lefel isel, isel iawn—fel lefel papurau bro, ddywedwn ni. Maen nhw wedi dod â’r papurau bro at ei gilydd yn yr ardaloedd yna, a’r radio lleol at ei gilydd. Hefyd, mae ganddyn nhw draddodiad o deledu lleol ers dros 20 mlynedd, 25 mlynedd. Maen nhw wedi dod a ‘consolidate-io’ y lefelau lleol un lefel yn uwch, ac mae hynny wedyn wedi caniatáu iddyn nhw, yn hytrach na bod ganddyn nhw bapur bro sy’n gwasanaethau, efallai, 7,000 o bobl neu 12,000 o bobl, neu rywbeth fel yna, symud i fyny i ddod â chwpl ohonyn nhw at ei gilydd fel eu bod nhw’n gwasanaethu poblogaeth o tua 70,000 o bobl, sef, yn eu hachos nhw, dalgylch ysbyty, neu rywbeth fel yna. Ac mae hynny wedi caniatáu iddyn nhw symud i fod yn fwy proffesiynol o ran beth maen nhw’n ei wneud. Felly, yn hytrach na bod yn grwpiau bychain, atomeiddiedig, mewn ffordd, o bapurau bro ac o radios lleol, maen nhw wedi dod at ei gilydd, ac mae hynny wedyn wedi newid y ffordd y mae eu newyddiadurwyr nhw yn gweithio. Maen nhw’n gweithio ar draws y platforms, ond maen nhw hefyd yn gallu, efallai, arbenigo mewn maes fel iechyd hefyd. Felly, nid yw symud reit i lawr i’r lefel waelod o’r hyperleol wastad yn trend sydd yn digwydd ym mhob man.

 

May I just make one brief comment? I do apologise. On the hyperlocal, what I’ve been seeing happening in another country, the Basque Country, in recent years, or over the past five to seven years, is that, whilst the world is discussing the hyperlocal, what’s happened to their press in the Basque Country is that they have moved away from the hyperlocal as we would think of it, as a very low-level—the papurau bro level, if you like. They’ve brought the papurau bro together in those areas, the local radio has also been brought in, and they have a tradition of local television that has been established for over 20 or 25 years. They have consolidated all of those local levels at the next level up, which has meant that, rather than them having a papur bro that serves 7,000 people, or 12,000 people, they have been able to move that to another level in bringing these together, serving a population of some 70,000 people, which is the catchment area for a hospital, let’s say. And that’s allowed them to move to being more professional in their activities. Therefore, rather than being very small, atomised groups of papurau bro and local radio stations, they’ve consolidated, and that’s changed the way in which their journalists work. They work across those platforms, but they can also specialise in an area such as health. So, moving right down to that base level of the hyperlocal isn’t always going to be a trend that’ll happen everywhere.

[52]      Bethan Jenkins: Unrhyw beth arall?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Anything else?

 

[53]      Dai Lloyd: Na, bendigedig.

 

Dai Lloyd: No, excellent.

 

[54]      Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.

 

[55]      Jeremy Miles: Diolch. Dychmygwch wefan sydd yn darparu sylwebaeth ar faterion cyfoes—efallai mai eich gwefan chi yw hon—a hefyd yn darparu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol, ac yn gwneud hynny trwy gyflogi newyddiadurwyr, ac yn cyfrannu, felly, at y gyhoeddfa Gymreig mewn ffordd go iawn, mewn ffordd at scale. Beth fyddai ei angen o ran adnoddau ac o ran model busnes i alluogi i hynny ddigwydd—naill ai mewn ffordd sy’n creu elw neu, yn ôl eich model chi, ar sail ffurf nid er elw? Faint o swm o arian ydych chi’n trafod? Ac a oes model busnes masnachol sy’n gallu cyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw, yn eich barn chi?

 

Jeremy Miles: Thank you. Imagine a website that provides commentary on contemporary issues—perhaps this is your website—and provides investigative journalism, and does that by employing journalists, and contributing, therefore, to the Welsh public sphere in a genuine manner, at scale. What would be needed in terms of resources and a business model to enable that to happen—either in a way that generates profit or, in terms of your model, as a not-for-profit model? What kinds of sums of money are you talking about? And is there a commercial business model that can reach that point, in your opinion?

 

[56]      Dr Jones: Roeddwn i’n olygydd Golwg360 am gyfnod. Rwy’n meddwl ei bod tipyn bach yn wahanol yn Saesneg. Rwy’n meddwl bod mwy o sgôp i wasanaeth newyddion sy’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus yn Saesneg. Mae gennych chi fwy o arian drwy hysbysebion ac yn y blaen, er mwyn ategu’r arian a fyddai’n dod i mewn yn gyhoeddus.

 

Dr Jones: I was editor of Golwg360 for a period. I do think that it’s slightly different in the English language. I think there would be more scope for a news service that receives public funds in English. You would generate income through advertisements and so on, in order to supplement the public funds.

 

[57]      Y broblem efo Golwg360 i raddau oedd, yn rhannol, fe wnaeth lansio yn syth ar ôl y chwalfa ariannol. Felly, roedd arian hysbysebu cyhoeddus yn eithaf prin beth bynnag. Ond, hefyd, ar ben hynny, yn draddodiadol, mae’r wasg Gymraeg wedi cael trafferthion yn denu hysbysebwyr. I raddau, nid ydyn nhw’n deall buddion hysbysebu yn Gymraeg, mewn gwirionedd.

 

The problem with Golwg360 to a certain extent was that, partially, it launched immediately after the financial crash. Therefore, advertising funding was relatively scarce in any case. But, traditionally, the Welsh-medium press has had difficulty in attracting advertisers, to a certain extent because they simply don’t understand that one can benefit through advertising through the medium of Welsh.

 

[58]      Mae’n anodd; nid wyf eisiau gwneud rhyw fath o Diane Abbott a jest tynnu rhyw ffigur allan o nunlle. Ond, rwy’n meddwl bod yna rhyw fath o—. Roedd Golwg360 yn cael £200,000. Roedd hynny’n galluogi, mewn gwirionedd, i fi a rhyw ddau newyddiadurwr arall fod wrthi ar unrhyw adeg benodol yn ystod y dydd.

 

It’s difficult; I don’t want to do a Diane Abbott and pluck a figure out of the air. But I think that there’s—. Golwg360 received £200,000. That enabled me and two other journalists to be working at any specific time during the day.

[59]      Roedd hynny’n golygu hefyd bod angen newyddiadurwyr i fod yn rhydd er mwyn dod i mewn yn gynnar iawn yn y bore er mwyn paratoi pethau ar gyfer pryd fyddai pobl yn troi eu cyfrifiaduron ymlaen, a hefyd bod rhywun angen bod yna yn eithaf hwyr gyda’r nos hefyd, a hefyd bod angen aelodau o staff mewn ar benwythnosau—dau aelod o staff ar ddydd Sadwrn ac un ar ddydd Sul. Roedd hynny am £200,000.

 

That also meant that we needed journalists to be free in order to come in very early in the morning to prepare things for when people switch their computers on, and we needed people there late at night too, in order to have cover, and we also needed weekend cover—two members of staff on a Saturday and one on a Sunday. That was all for £200,000.

[60]      Felly, fel roeddwn i’n dweud, nid oeddwn i’n teimlo bod yr adnoddau yna yn ddigonol er mwyn gallu cynhyrchu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol—

 

As I said, I didn’t think that those resources were sufficient to produce investigative journalism—

[61]      Jeremy Miles: Nid oeddech chi ddim, neu—?

 

Jeremy Miles: You didn’t or—?

[62]      Dr Jones: Nid oedden nhw ddim yn ddigonol er mwyn cynhyrchu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol o safon uchel. Roeddem ni’n cynhyrchu tua 30 stori y diwrnod rhwng dau neu dri ohonom ni. Felly, fel rydych chi’n gallu dychmygu, roeddem ni’n gorfod mynd drwyddyn nhw yn eithaf cyflym—ffonau wrth y ddau glust, mewn ffordd.

 

Dr Jones: No, I didn’t think that was sufficient to provide high-quality investigative journalism. We produced some 30 stories a day between two or three people. So, as you can imagine, we had to get through that quite quickly, and you had a phone to each ear, very often.

 

[63]      Beth rwyf wedi bod yn ei wneud dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yw mynd o gwmpas yn cyfweld newyddiadurwyr o BBC Cymru Fyw, Golwg360, Barn ac O’r Pedwar Gwynt, a’r neges rwyf wedi’i chael gan bob un ohonyn nhw ydy: ‘Rydym yn cyfrannu rhywbeth at y sffêr gyhoeddus Gymreig, ond nid ydym ni’n gallu gwneud newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol’—yn enwedig gyda’r gofynion cynyddol erbyn hyn am gynnwys aml-gyfrwng hefyd; mae mwy a mwy o bobl yn disgwyl cael fideos a chlipiau sain, ac yn y blaen.

 

What I’ve been doing over the past year is that I’ve been interviewing journalists from BBC Cymru Fyw, Golwg360, Barn and O’r Pedwar Gwynt, and the message that I’ve heard from each and every one of them is: ‘We do contribute something to the public sphere in Wales, but we can’t carry out investigative journalism’—particularly with the increasing demands for multimedia content; more and more people expect to see videos and audio clips, and so on and so forth.

[64]      Mae pethau’n amlwg yn mynd i fod yn rhatach yn yr oes ddigidol nag y bydden nhw wedi bod, er enghraifft, yn trio sefydlu rhywbeth fel Y Byd, lle mae lot o gost. Y rheswm nad ydym wedi cael gwasanaeth newyddion yn Saesneg yng Nghymru drwy ei hoes ydy oherwydd bod Cymru yn wlad fynyddig iawn gyda chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth anodd iawn rhwng y de a’r gogledd. Felly, fe fyddai’n anodd cael y papur allan i Gymru, a hefyd y ffaith fod poblogaeth Cymru yn weddol o fach—ac oherwydd ei bod yn wlad weddol dlawd sydd ddim yn apelio lot at hysbysebwyr, o’i chymharu efo llefydd fel Llundain, er enghraifft.

 

It’s clear that things are cheaper in the digital age than they would have been, for example, in establishing a newspaper such as Y Byd, where there are a lot of costs. The reason why we haven’t had an English language news service in Wales is that Wales has very difficult geographical issues in terms of links between north and south. It would be very difficult to distribute a national newspaper—and also the fact that the population of Wales is relatively small, and that it’s a relatively poor nation, which doesn’t really appeal to advertisers in comparison to somewhere like London, for example.

[65]      Ond, rwy’n meddwl, oherwydd yr oes ddigidol, efallai bod lot o’r problemau o ran dosbarthu wedi cael eu lleddfu, i raddau helaeth. Felly, nid wyf yn meddwl y byddai’r gost o lansio rhywbeth mor uchel ag y byddai wedi bod i rywbeth fel Y Byd, er enghraifft. Ond, os ydych eisiau gwneud rhywbeth yn Saesneg, yn amlwg, byddai scale y peth yn llawer mwy. Tua faint o gopïau oeddech chi’n meddwl argraffu o Y Byd?

 

But, I do think that, in the digital age, many of those distribution problems have been mitigated to a great extent. I don’t think the cost of launching something would be as high as it would have been for Y Byd, for example. But, if you wanted to do it in English, the scale would be far greater, of course. Around how many copies would you have expected to print of Y Byd?

[66]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Roeddem ni’n sôn am o gwmpas 20,000. Dyna beth roeddem ni’n meddwl. Hefyd, roeddem ni’n sôn am drosiant o gwmpas £1 miliwn. Wrth gwrs, mae hyn yn sbel yn ôl, onid yw? Mae hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus yn rhan allweddol o fodel busnes ar gyfer rhywbeth fel hyn, achos bod yr hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus wedyn yn cynnig llif o refeniw sy’n dod i mewn.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: We were talking around 20,000. That’s what we thought. We also talked about a turnover of around £1 million. Of course, this is a long time ago, isn’t it? And public sector advertisements would be a key component of the business model for something like this, because those public sector advertisements would then provide a revenue stream.

[67]      Jeremy Miles: Ar y testun yma, rydym ni wedi cael tystiolaeth y dylai hysbysebion cyhoeddus fod ar gael i newyddiaduraeth hyperleol a phob math o bethau, a hefyd defnyddio ffynhonnell arian cychwynnol—rhyw fath o start-up fund—lle byddai pobl yn gallu cystadlu am yr arian. Rŷm ni wedi cael tystiolaeth hefyd am gynlluniau lleddfu trethi ac ati ar gyfer y mathau yma o wefannau neu fusnesau. A ydych chi’n credu bod y syniadau yna yn syniadau diddorol a ddylai gael eu hystyried?

 

Jeremy Miles: On that matter, we’ve received evidence that those public notices should be available to hyperlocal publishers and other sources, and that they should also use start–up funds where people could compete for that funding. We have also received evidence about tax relief schemes and so on for these kinds of websites or businesses. Do you think that those ideas are interesting ideas that should be followed up?

[68]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Yn sicr, achos rydw i’n meddwl eu bod nhw yn gostwng yr entry level. Maen nhw’n gwneud y cae chwarae yn fwy cyson, yn fwy teg ac yn y blaen. Ac mae’r newyddiaduraeth ddigidol yn bwysig iawn, iawn, wrth gwrs, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni hefyd drio cadw golwg ar ba mor anweledig mae’r byd digidol yn gallu bod, nid yn unig i rannau o’r boblogaeth sydd ddim yn byw ar eu ffonau, ond hefyd, pan rydym ni’n byw ar ein ffôn rydym ni’n mynd i mewn i’r the daily me, onid ydym? Ac rydym ni’n byw yn y siambr eco ac yn y blaen. Ond pan rydym ni’n mynd i’r stryd, a phan rydym ni’n mynd i’r siop, rydym ni’n gweld beth sydd ar gael, ac rydym ni i gyd yn gweld yr un peth â’n gilydd, i bob pwrpas. Felly, mae peidio â chuddio yr amrywiaeth hefyd yn bwysig; o fuddsoddi i drio creu amrywiaeth, mae peidio â chuddio’r amrywiaeth yn rhan bwysig o hynny, rydw i’n meddwl.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Certainly, because they do lower the entry level. They make the playing field much more equal and fair and so on. And digital journalism is very important, of course, but I also think we have to try to keep an eye on how invisible the digital world can be, not just to parts of the population who don’t live on their phones, but also when we live on our phone, we go into the ‘daily me’, don’t we? And we live in those echo chambers and so on.  But when we go out onto the street, and when we go to the shop, we see what is available, and we all see the same thing as each other for all intents and purposes. So, not hiding that variety is also important; in investing to try and create that variety, not hiding that away is also important, I think.

[69]      Dr Jones: Rwy’n meddwl bod y syniad o greu sffêr cyhoeddus cenedlaethol yng Nghymru ynghlwm â’r syniad o greu rhyw fath o gymuned ddychmygol cenedlaethol. A beth mae’r ymchwil academaidd yn ei ddangos ydy: yr un peth sy’n creu rhyw fath o ymdeimlad o undod, bron, ymysg poblogaeth cenedl yw os ydyn nhw’n cymryd rhan yn yr un defodau dyddiol, ac un o’r defodau yna ydy darllen yr un papur newydd.

 

Dr Jones: The concept of creating a public sphere in Wales is related to the establishment of a national imagined community of some kind in Wales. And what the academic research demonstrates is that it creates some sort of feeling of unity among a population or nation if they are participating in the same daily rituals, and one of those is reading the same newspaper.

[70]      Jeremy Miles: Rwy’n derbyn hynny. Nid wyf wedi clywed oddi wrth yr un ohonoch chi eich bod chi’n ffyddiog iawn bod model busnes a allai ddaparu’r math o gyfrwng roeddwn i’n sôn amdano. A ydy hynny’n ffordd deg o ddisgrifio eich tystiolaeth chi?

 

Jeremy Miles: I’m not hearing from either of you that you have a great deal of faith that there is a business model that can provide the kind of media that I was talking about. Is that a fair way of describing your evidence?

[71]      Dr Jones: Na, nid ydw i’n credu hynny. Rydw i’n meddwl bod yna fodel busnes a fyddai'n gallu darparu gwasanaeth cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, yn sicr. Rydw i’n meddwl y byddai angen oddeutu—dywedwch eich bod chi’n gosod ffigur o £1 miliwn y flwyddyn o arian cyhoeddus, er enghraifft. Os ydy gwasanaeth fel Golwg360 yn gallu cael ei gynnal ar—erbyn hyn mae’n cael tua £775,000; mae’r ffigur wedi gostwng ers y dechrau. Rydw i’n meddwl y buasai angen rhyw £1 miliwn y flwyddyn cyn lansio ac wedyn—

 

Dr Jones: I don’t think so. I think there is a business model that could provide a national English language news service, certainly. I think you would need to set a figure of £1 million per annum in terms of public funding. If a service such as Golwg360 can be sustained on some £775,000—and the figure has reduced since its establishment—I think you would you need around £1 million per annum before launching, and then—

[72]      Jeremy Miles: Ond arian cyhoeddus rŷch chi’n sôn amdano fan hyn, nid arian masnachol.

 

Jeremy Miles: But you’re talking about public funding rather than commercial funding.

[73]      Dr Jones: Rydw i’n meddwl y buasai angen arian cyhoeddus, yn sicr.

 

Dr Jones: Yes, I think you would certainly need public funds.

[74]      Jeremy Miles: Jest er mwyn cael y syniad o scale, rŷch chi’n sôn am £1 miliwn o arian cyhoeddus; a oes gennych chi syniad o faint o arian masnachol y byddai’n bosibl ei ddenu i mewn i’r math yn o gynnig?

 

Jeremy Miles: But just to have an idea of the scale, you’re talking about £1 million of public funding; do you have an idea of how much commercial funding would be needed to go into that kind of offer?

[75]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Nid ydw i ddim wedi edrych ar y ffigurau yma ers cyfnod o amser, ond os ydw i’n cofio o’r cyfnod lle roeddem ni’n paratoi’r cynllun busnes ar gyfer papur dyddiol Cymraeg sawl blwyddyn yn ôl, yna mi oedd yr arian cyhoeddus drwy hysbysebion cyhoeddus yn mynd i fod yn gyfran fwy na’r hanner o’r ffrwd incwm o hysbysebion. Byddai rhywun wedyn yn disgwyl—dywedwn ni £1 miliwn, ac wedyn trosiant o tua £1.5 miliwn.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: I haven’t looked at these figures for a fair amount of time, but thinking back to the preparation of the business plan for the Welsh language daily newspaper many years ago, then the public funds through public notices were going to be more than 50 per cent of the income stream from advertisements. So one would then expect £1 million, and a turnover of £1.5 million.

[76]      Jeremy Miles: Ocê, diolch i chi. 

 

Jeremy Miles: Okay, thank you.

[77]      Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Mae gan Suzy Davies gwestiynau.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Suzy Davies has questions.

[78]      Suzy Davies: Diolch. I want to ask you a little bit about funding myself, actually. But before I do that, I wanted to just test your statement, Dr Morgan Jones, that

 

[79]      ‘there is an appetite that is not now being sated by English-language media in Wales.’

 

[80]      Now, if you go and speak to a local newspaper—as I’ve done—that perhaps has been forced into making decisions that they don’t particularly want to make in terms of their editorial content, the line that perhaps they might have been given by further up the chain is, ‘We are publishing what people want to read’. That is why you have ‘10 exciting restaurants to eat in in Swansea’ and ‘The fourth worst public toilets in Wales’ and all the rest of it—the lists and the click-journalism side of things. What we’re not seeing, of course, is what our local authorities are up to, just as one example. Has this gone too far for us to recover the appetite for local materion cyfoes, if you like? Have we reached a stage where people have just forgotten how to read about what’s happening in their local authorities, as one example?

 

10:15

 

[81]      Dr Jones: I don’t think that’s the case at all. In fact, as you can see in the paper I supplied, when I did a content analysis of Golwg360’s statistics, the vast majority of the most popular stories during that time were stories to do with this institution or political stories on the periphery—local council stories. I think the reason people were turning towards Golwg360 for that news was because that kind of information wasn’t being supplied by the local or the regional press. I think people are interested, and perhaps increasingly so. For instance, at the election just past we saw a big increase in the number of young people who voted, which suggests that when people do come across media—increasingly through Facebook, for instance—that does get to grips with some of these political issues that are affecting their lives, then there is a great interest, I think, in that media.

 

[82]      I think there is a danger that—. The problem with clickbait, in a way, is that it’s specifically designed in order to just get people to click on the story in the first place, and it doesn’t actually matter whether that content actually engages them afterwards. I think Facebook have now changed the algorithm so that the amount of time people actually spend reading the story influences how high those search results appear on the website, and I think that’s a very positive change, because I don’t know about other people in this room, but I don’t know how many times I’ve clicked on a story on Twitter or Facebook and just realised almost as the website loads that it’s just complete rubbish and I’m going to have to click through about 50 different pages with an advert on each one. So, I would say there is always going to be more interest in popular content than there is in the sort of deep political content that’s harder work to read, but I fear that the press, in searching for a commercial online media, perhaps have gone too far in one direction, and perhaps have left their public service ethos behind to a certain extent. Even though more people may click on ‘10 funny images of cats’ than they click on what’s going to—

 

[83]      Suzy Davies: That’s me. I do that.

 

[84]      Dr Jones: I think it’s also a question of the Assembly being successful in packaging news about politics and councils being successful in packaging news about politics. Because even if you look at Westminster, Westminster is all over the front pages and everybody reads these stories, but a lot of it is quite ‘soap opera-y’, in a way, and not a lot of it does get to grips with the sort of nitty-gritty of what’s going on in the Brexit committee in the House of Commons, for instance, where a lot of what we think might be political interest is actually, ‘Oh, I’ve been following this soap opera for a while, I wonder what’s going to happen to Theresa May now’ kind of thing, rather than a real interest in the policy differences between people. So, I think the political stuff gets through almost by osmosis, by packaging the news in a way that is interesting to people, and that takes time and effort on the part of the journalist. As I said, they’re very dependent on press releases. If they get a press release from the Assembly saying ‘Ifan Morgan Jones and Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones have been giving evidence today, this is what they said’ and it seems quite dry, they’re not then going to have the time to go through that press release and repackage it as a sexy piece of news in a way that—

 

[85]      Suzy Davies: ‘Ifan Morgan Jones’s top 10 words—click here.’

 

[86]      Dr Jones: Maybe we need to do a little bit more of that. But I think that perhaps the Assembly has a role in thinking of ways that they can make their news accessible not just perhaps to the five per cent who are political anoraks, but perhaps the wider community beyond that, and ask journalists what kind of content they do want, as well, because perhaps if you did package it as a sort of top 10 or a listicle or something like that or in a way that is more ‘soap opera-y’—you know, what the Assembly Members are up to and so forth—then more people would read it.

 

[87]      Suzy Davies: Watching pictures of cats—that’s all we do here.

 

[88]      Dr Jones: So, you have to be[Inaudible.]

 

[89]      Bethan Jenkins: Let’s not go there this morning. We’re not jumping though fields of wheat anyway, so—.

 

[90]      Suzy Davies: That’s way too dangerous

 

[91]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Ond, efallai, os ydy rhywun yn cymryd y model opera sebon, a ydy pobol yn gwybod pwy yw’r cymeriadau, ynte? Rydw i’n siŵr bod—. Mae yna rai ohonoch chi sy’n fwy enwog na’ch gilydd, nid ydw i’n dweud, ond, er mwyn cymryd approach opera sebon i wleidyddiaeth Gymreig, mae’n rhaid cael y cymeriadau allan yna, ac nid yw’r cymeriadau yna ddim yno ar hyn o bryd, nac ydyn? Ac mae’n fy rhyfeddu i, pan fyddaf i hyd yn oed yn clywed pobl rydw i’n siarad efo nhw sydd ddim yn gwybod enw Carwyn, ynte—Carwyn Jones. Mae hynny’n fy rhyfeddu i, ac mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl pam bod hynny’n wir, ynte.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: But, perhaps, if somebody takes the soap opera model as an example, do people know who the characters are? I’m sure that—. Some of you are more famous than others, but, to take that soap opera approach to Welsh politics, you do have to get the characters out there, and the characters aren’t there at present, are they? And it stuns me when I talk to people who don’t know Carwyn Jones’s name. That’s a huge surprise to me, and we do have to think about why that’s true.

[92]      Suzy Davies: Wel, nid oes sgetsh gwleidyddol yng Nghymru, nac oes?

 

Suzy Davies: Well, we don’t have a political sketch in Wales, do we?

[93]      Bethan Jenkins: Spitting Image Cymraeg.

 

Bethan Jenkins: A Welsh Spitting Image.

[94]      Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: A rôl newyddiadurwyr ydy gwneud y cynnwyd yn fwy diddorol, ynte: troi hyn yn rhywbeth hyd yn oed yn fwy diddorol na beth ydy o. Ond dyna yw rôl newyddiadurwr—nid ailadrodd beth sydd wedi digwydd neu jest ei fyrhau o, ond rhoi steer arno fo, a rhoi arwyddocâd pellach iddo fo, a’i wneud o’n ddiddorol, ynte.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: And the role of journalists is to make the content more interesting: to turn this into something that’s even more interesting than it already is. But that’s the role of journalism—it’s not just repeating what’s happened or summarising it, but giving it a steer, and also giving it further significance and making it interesting.

[95]      Dr Jones: Os rhoddaf i esiampl, er enghraifft, os buaswn i’n cael datganiad gan y Cynulliad yn dweud bod yna Ddeddf rhoi organau newydd wedi dod i mewn, pe buaswn i jest yn sticio hynny yn y papur, ni fyddai lot o ddiddordeb ynddo fe. Er ei fod o’n Ddeddf ofnadwy o bwysig, yn effeithio bywydau lot o bobl, ni fyddai lot o ddiddordeb ynddo fo. Pe buaswn i fel newyddiadurwr efo’r amser i ffeindio rhywun sydd yn fyw heddiw oherwydd y Ddeddf yna, ac yn mynd atyn nhw ac yn ei cyfweld nhw, mi fyddai pobl wedyn yn darllen stori am Joe Jones lawr yr heol sydd yn byw heddiw oherwydd ei fod o wedi cael organ trwy'r Ddeddf rhoi organau, ac, mewn ffordd, buasai’r stwff gwleidyddol, wedyn, yn dod trwodd yn y stori yna, rhwng yr human interest story, mewn ffordd. Felly, mae’n ffordd o sut rydych chi’n pecynnu straeon, ac nid oes gan newyddiadurwr, yn gynyddol, yng Nghymru, yr amser i ailbecynnu datganiadau fel straeon diddordeb dynol diddorol. Felly, efallai bod yna rôl i’r Cynulliad i wneud y math yna o beth drostyn nhw, os ydy’r adnoddau yna, felly.

 

Dr Jones: As an example, if we received a press release saying that the organ donation Bill had come in, and we just put in the paper, there wouldn’t be a great deal of interest in it, even though it’s a very important law and it would affect a great many people. As journalists, if we had the time to find someone who is alive today because of that law, and if we went to them and interviewed them, then people would read a story about Joe Jones down the road who’s alive today because he had received an organ through the organ donation Act, and the political issues would come through in that story, through the human interest story. So, it’s about how you package stories, and journalists, increasingly, in Wales don’t have the time to repackage press releases as human interest stories. So, perhaps there’s a role for the Assembly to do that kind of thing for them, if the resources are there.

[96]      Bethan Jenkins: Suzy.

 

[97]      Suzy Davies: Well, actually, this is a question that the Commission itself is considering at the moment. I just wanted to ask you something about—. If start-ups were to be publicly funded, what should be the criteria for funding those start-ups? I would ask you for how it would be distributed, but, you know, you mentioned in what you were saying earlier on about the success of The Canary and similar online things. That certainly helped stir interest in politics, but, of course, it’s just repeating, effectively, what’s happening in the Daily Express and the Daily Mirror, as much as it’s reinforcing particular political standpoints rather than encouraging open thinking, if you like. If public money were to go into start-ups, should there be minimum criteria about journalistic standards and political neutrality? And that’s whether they’re essentially voluntary organisations or not.

 

[98]      Dr Jones: I think that, to a certain extent, those standards would come as a direct result of actually receiving money. The second you’re a professional journalist, you perhaps do have higher standards than, as I said, if you’re just doing something voluntary. For instance, if you think about Golwg 360, I was the editor of Golwg 360; we did receive £200,000 a year from the Welsh Books Council, through the Welsh Government. I do have political views, but I did keep all the content on Golwg 360 completely politically neutral, because I was aware that—

 

[99]      Suzy Davies: Balanced as well.

 

[100]   Dr Jones: —I was serving the people of Wales, that I was serving the people who were investing money in this, which were the Welsh Government, who represent the people of Wales. So, I think the—. For instance, if you contrast that with something like Nation.Cymru, which I’m running now, because it’s a voluntary site I’ve basically said, ‘Okay, anyone who wants to contribute to Nation.Cymru, you can do so.’ But all I’ve received are contributions by members of the Labour Party who are on the Welsher wing of the Labour Party perhaps, and Plaid Cymru members, because those are the kinds of people who want to be part of the national conversation, have more interesting—

 

[101]   Suzy Davies: Expect some from the others shortly. [Laughter.]

 

[102]   Dr Jones: Yes, hopefully. I would be very happy to receive contributions from others as well, but it just so happens that, because of the kind of site it is, that’s all I’ve been getting—these kinds of people shovelling content towards me. Whereas if it was—. And, because of the voluntary nature of it, I haven’t had the time. It would take more effort for me to spend many hours of commissioning articles from a broader range of people where, when I was the editor of Golwg 360 and working full time on the site, I was able, quite easily, to spend time making sure that we had a broader picture, and I remember being very happy walking around the Eisteddfod maes once when one person came up to me and gave me a row that we were being too kind to the Tories on Golwg 360—

 

[103]   Suzy Davies: You can never be too kind to the Tories. [Laughter.]

 

[104]   Dr Jones: And then another person came up to me and gave me a row for being too kind towards Plaid Cymru. So, I thought, ‘Yes, I’ve got the balance right here, on the site, because no one’s happy’.

 

[105]   Suzy Davies: A balance, yes, because—. Can I just ask you a quick one there? Presumably, you’ve got some sort of editorial controls if something is offered to you that crosses the offensiveness line—you can either refuse to take it or take pieces out of it, yes?

 

[106]   Dr Jones: Yes. Yes, simply, I do that, you know—

 

[107]   Suzy Davies: I don’t mean a political viewpoint—

 

[108]   Bethan Jenkins: You’re anticipating an article about somebody—[Inaudible.]

 

[109]   Suzy Davies: What words have I got to leave out? [Laughter.] But you can see where I’m coming from—you know, the tone, particularly on social media in this last election, was beyond acceptable in some cases, so I guess you do have some editorial control about choosing what goes on your site. I mean, I’m not saying this happened on yours at all, but—you know where I’m coming from. At what point would a state-funded, effectively, or state-supported, published website or, actually, print media reach a situation where the state could then say, ‘I’m sorry, we’re pulling the money on this—you’ve gone too far’?

 

[110]   Dr Jones: I think, certainly, as an editor, you have to look out, obviously, for things like libel and contempt of court to begin with, which don’t apply so much on Twitter, where everyone just says what they want. You also—

 

[111]   Suzy Davies: You mentioned that everybody knows the rules on that either. So, I’m guessing insurance is an issue for you.

 

[112]   Dr Jones: I think, as an editor, you would just to take—you’d just have to know your stuff, really, and make sure that no content like that—. Obviously, if any kind of content does cross the line and becomes abusive, you either just have to spike the article, or you have to get back in contact with the person and say, ‘You know, this isn’t acceptable at all. I’d have to cut this bit out. Are you happy for me to cut it out? If not, you know, the article gets spiked.’

 

[113]   Suzy Davies: I appreciate that’s putting you on the spot, but as a general idea. Thank you. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

 

[114]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch.

 

[115]   Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: A gaf i ychwanegu un neu ddau o bethau rydw i’n eu meddwl ynglŷn â hyn?

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: May I add one or two things to that?

[116]   Bethan Jenkins: O, ie—sori, nid oes lot o amser.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Oh, yes—sorry, there isn’t much time.

 

[117]   Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Popeth yn iawn. Rydw i’n deall; byddaf yn fast iawn. Rydw i’n meddwl, o ran gosod gofynion efo arian cyhoeddus, os mai’r bwriad ydy cryfhau amrywiaeth yr wasg, yna mae’n rhaid cael—nid yw’n gorfod bod erthygl wrth erthygl, bod popeth yn gorfod bod yn gytbwys, ond ei fod o, yn fras, yn gytbwys. Rydw i’n meddwl bod hynny’n draddodiad sydd wedi cael ei etifeddu o’r system ddarlledu. Rydw i’n meddwl byddai fo’n bwysig hefyd i feddwl ynglŷn â sut i ddod â phobl ifanc i mewn i’r proffesiwn newyddiadurol, beth bynnag ydy ffurf y proffesiwn newyddiadurol yna yn y dyfodol. Rydw i’n meddwl byddai fo’n bwysig bod yna elfennau sy’n cyfateb i’r uchelgais o greu miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg o fewn y degawdau nesaf yma. Felly, hyd yn oed os ydy rhywun yn sôn ynglŷn â bod yna ddiffygion yn y wasg Saesneg yng Nghymru, nid oes dim byd o’i le chwaith efo cryfhau’r elfennau yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Rydym ni’n gwybod mewn gwledydd eraill, fel Catalonia, Gwlad y Basg, ac yn y blaen, bod nifer darllenwyr ifanc yn cynyddu yn fanna, felly, pe byddai mwy o gynnwys ar gael byddai’n helpu fanna. Ac rydw i’n meddwl ei bod yn bwysig cael dosbarthiad daearyddol pwysig, yntê, i hyn. Rydw i’n dweud hyn, wrth gwrs, fel rhywun sydd yn byw yn y gorllewin, ond hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn o sut brofiad byddai tyfu i fyny yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru y dyddiau yma, ac yn meddwl, ‘Reit, lle mae’r rôl i newyddiaduraeth sydd yn edrych ar bob rhan o Gymru mewn model fel hyn?’ Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod cael gwasgariad daearyddol hefyd yn bwysig iawn.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: That’s fine. I understand; I’ll be very fast. I think, in terms of setting requirements with public funding, if the intention is to strengthen the diversity of the press, then you have to have—it doesn’t have to be an article-by-article method of ensuring impartiality and balance, but it generally needs to be balanced. I think that that’s a tradition that’s been inherited from the broadcasting system. I think it’s also important to think about how to bring young people into the profession of journalism, whatever the form of that journalistic profession is in future. I think that it’s important that there are elements that correspond to the ambition of creating a million Welsh speakers within the next few decades. So, even if someone’s talking about the deficiency in the English-language press, there’s nothing wrong either with strengthening the elements in the Welsh language. We know that in other countries, such as Catalonia and the Basque Country, the number of young people and young readers is increasing there, so more content being available would be a help there. And I also think it’s important to have an important geographical distribution. I say this, of course, as someone who lives in the west, but also very aware of the experience of growing up in the north-east of Wales these days, and thinking, ‘Well, what’s the role for journalism that looks at all parts of Wales in a model like this?’ So, I think that having that geographical spread is also very important.

[118]   Bethan Jenkins: Jest cwestiynau gan Neil Hamilton nawr.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Some questions now from Neil Hamilton.

[119]   Neil Hamilton: Yes. Well, we live in a more visual age now than the one in which I was growing up, and the attention span of the public has dramatically declined, I think, in my lifetime. It’s very interesting to look back at the content of newspapers going back many years. I spent quite a long time in the vaults of the national library reading nineteenth century local newspapers and you’d be amazed at the depth of argument and coverage of serious issues—something like The Montgomeryshire Express back in the 1860s—compared with today, where even the Western Mail or Wales Online are only interested in trivialities and there’s no serious content at all. I’ve done my best to liven things up since I’ve been here, but—

 

[120]   Dai Lloyd: To bring a serious note—[Laughter.]

 

10:30

 

[121]   Neil Hamilton: Everybody complains that the Senedd isn’t reported, and when I do my best to ensure that it is reported then I get ticked off by the Llywydd for using too colourful a phrase or an image because it’s politically incorrect, or thought to be politically incorrect, and, actually, that is the only thing that our news media in Wales is interested in reporting on. It’s pathetic, actually, when you consider we’ve just been through an election to discuss the most serious issues of our age. All the Mickey Mouse kind of reporting that we get is just as true for national newspapers as it is for local newspapers, as you rightly said. The reportage of Westminster is all tittle-tattle of one kind or another. Parliamentary debates are not reported at all except sometimes for the main speakers, and the only thing that anybody knows about the House of Commons is Prime Minister’s question time, which is a complete pantomime and worthless as a means of exchanging ideas. I think First Minister’s questions is a bit better than that here, actually, in my experience, but that doesn’t get reported either. There’s nothing we can do about that, of course, but what strikes me is how much more lively, in a way, Welsh language publications are in Wales than the English language ones. I think that there’s a significant difference between the two. Small as they are, nevertheless I think that the standards are much higher than the commercial ones, if I can put it that way, like the Trinity Mirror group and so on.

 

[122]   What I’ve seen in my lifetime in Wales is a dramatic reduction in the diversity of and independence of news outlets, and I’m very concerned that we should try to do something to revive more of the plurality that existed 40 years ago, or 50 years ago. I’ve been a journalist myself and I do understand the problems today, with the collapse of advertising revenues. I worked as a columnist on the Sunday Express for many years. Now, I guess, across the two titles—the Daily Express and the Sunday Express—I doubt that there are 70 or 80 full-time professional journalists between two national newspapers, and that is replicated to a much more severe extent with our local news media, obviously. So, we’re living in an age of transition. Most of the print titles will have disappeared, I think, within a very short time, and we’re moving to more digital content. So, websites are going to become much more important. Still, there’s going to be a significant difficulty in finding finance for these outlets to produce the level of reporting, and particularly investigative reporting, that a healthy political society requires. There are obvious dangers in state finance—

 

[123]   Bethan Jenkins: Can I be Presiding Officer and ask if you’re going to come to a question? [Laughter.]

 

[124]   Neil Hamilton: Yes. I will do.

 

[125]   Bethan Jenkins: As much as I’m loving listening to you. [Laughter.]

 

[126]   Neil Hamilton: Exactly.

 

[127]   Bethan Jenkins: Thank you.

 

[128]   Neil Hamilton: You’ve anticipated my next move.

 

[129]   Bethan Jenkins: Great. I’m liking that.

 

[130]   Neil Hamilton: I was obviously receiving the signals telepathically.

 

[131]   Bethan Jenkins: Yes. [Laughter.]

 

[132]   Neil Hamilton: But it has worked, I think, with Welsh language publishing. So, I was wondering whether you think that additional state support should be provided for traditional news journalism, particularly English language journalism, which you referred to, and, if so, what this might look like. Do you think that’s a realistic possibility?

 

[133]   Dr Jones: My PhD is in the nineteenth century Welsh press, so I concur about the quality of the debate that was in the press at that time. But the thing to remember, of course, was that, as soon as the News of the World and London papers came in, the Welsh press was just annihilated, to all intents and purposes. So, you could argue that the only reason people were reading the Monmouthshire Merlin was because there was nothing better and more interesting around to read at the time. But I would just make the case that public funding has worked very well through the Welsh language. There were no issues when I was at Golwg360 with any kind of bias within the website, and I don’t think there are any more. I don’t think there was any sort of feeling of undue pressure either by the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly or any other political organisation to write in any way, favourably or unfavourably. The only concern I do have with public funding is that the one effect it has had on Welsh language press, in my opinion, is that the press doesn’t make enough effort to be popular—in my opinion. I think, perhaps, it sometimes has turned into a press by middle-class Welsh speakers for middle-class Welsh speakers to a certain extent because, as a middle-class Welsh-speaking person writing novels and writing journalism, those are my peers, really, and I’m trying to please my peers. And because there’s no financial incentive to appeal to a wider audience, perhaps that is one negative effect of receiving public money. But I think if the English language press received a public subsidy they would obviously be, to a certain extent, dependent on that public subsidy, and also on a certain amount of income generated through other revenues such as advertisers. So, I think on the seesaw between being a more popular press and perhaps a more substantial press, perhaps they get the balance slightly better than the Welsh language press has over the years.

 

[134]   Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Byddwn i’n dweud yn gyflym iawn, y peth olaf byddwn ni’n disgwyl i chi fod yn gweithio tuag ato fo ydy ffordd o roi arian cyhoeddus i gynnal y math o wasg sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, hynny ydy model o jest parhad i roi, yn lle bod—. Fe ddywedwn ni, yn glir iawn—yn lle bod Trinity Mirror yn parhau â’i fodel busnes drwy gael hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus, eu bod nhw’n symud draw i fod yn rhyw fath o grant sector cyhoeddus, a byddwn i’n meddwl eich bod chi—os dyna ydy’r uchelgais, rydw i wir yn meddwl eich bod chi’n colli golwg ar beth ydy’r cyfle sy’n gallu codi os ydych chi’n meddwl o ddifri ynglŷn â gwneud adjustment i’r market failure sydd yn amlwg yn bodoli yn y wasg yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru, o ran beth mae pobl yn darllen a beth mae pobl yn gweld. Os ydych chi eisiau cael gwasg sydd yn fwy egnïol ac yn fwy amrywiol yn y ddwy iaith, yna mae’n rhaid gwneud adjustments i fethiant y farchnad, a’r ffordd mae’r adjustment yna yn cael ei wneud ydy efallai cyfuniad o beth bynnag ydy’r pwerau sydd ar gael o ran amrywio lle mae treth yn dod i mewn a lle mae buddsoddiad yn mynd allan. Ac os nad oes gennych chi'r grym i amrywio'r mater efo’r trethi, yna dim ond drwy amrywio buddsoddiad y mae modd newid y farchnad yna.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: I would just say very briefly that the last thing I would expect you to be working towards is a means of providing public funds to sustain the kind of press that we currently have, that is a model of continuity. So, let’s make this clear, rather than Trinity Mirror continuing with its business model by attracting public sector advertising, that it moves over to be some sort of public sector grant, and I would think that if that’s the ambition, then I really think that you are losing sight of the opportunities that could arise if you think in earnest about making an adjustment to the market failure, which clearly exists in the press and media generally in Wales, in terms of what people read and what people see. If you want a press that is more diverse and more energetic in both languages, then you need to make adjustments to that market failure, and the way that adjustment is made is perhaps a combination of whatever powers are available in terms of varying where the tax is taken and where the investment is made. And if you don’t have the powers to vary taxation, then it’s only through varying investment can you change that marketplace.

[135]   Felly, byddwn i’n meddwl bod yna gyfle i wneud rhywbeth cyffrous iawn yn fan hyn. Mae gennym ni fodel lle rydym ni’n gwybod, drwy’r wasg Gymraeg a drwy’r system darlledu gyhoeddus, fod buddsoddiad cyhoeddus yn amrywiaeth y wasg ac yn amrywiaeth newyddiaduraeth yn gweithio ac yn dderbyniol. Felly, un cam pellach wedyn ydy penderfynu estyn y model yna y tu allan i ddarlledu yn Saesneg i’w roi o tuag at gynhyrchu newyddion gwahanol yn Saesneg. Ond ni fyddwn i’n dweud chwaith nad ydy’r newyddiaduraeth Gymraeg yn gwbl iach chwaith, ac mae wir yn bwysig trio sicrhau bod y wasg yn cyrraedd mwy o siaradwyr a mwy o bobl sydd yn y broses o ddysgu’r iaith, beth bynnag ydy eu hoed.

So, I think there is an opportunity to do something very exciting here. We do have a model where we know through, the Welsh media and the public service broadcasting system, that public investment in the plurality of the press and the plurality of journalism does work and is acceptable. So, it’s one step further then, of course, to decide to extend that model beyond English language broadcasting, and to make provision for the production of news in a different way in English. But I wouldn’t say either that the Welsh language journalism is entirely healthy either, and it’s very important that we do try to ensure that the press and media does reach more Welsh speakers and more Welsh learners, whatever their age.

 

[136]   Neil Hamilton: And you referred to the Basque Country. Do you know any other examples internationally that we might explore to take us further along this road?

 

[137]   Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Wel, un achos diddorol iawn, efallai, hefyd ydy’r Ffindir, lle mae Swedeg hefyd yn iaith swyddogol yna, ac mae patrymau newyddiadurol cryf iawn yn y fan yna. Mae’r model o danysgrifio i bapur newydd yn gryf iawn yn yr ardal yna, ac mae hynny wedyn, wrth gwrs, yn caniatáu i’r papurau symud o’r fersiwn print i’r fersiwn digidol gymaint yn rhwyddach oherwydd bod y darllenwyr yn barod wedi comitio neu ymrwymo i’r cynnwys—dim ots ym mha ffurf y mae’n eu cyrraedd nhw, maent wedi comitio i’r cynnwys. Felly, efallai ei bod hi’n wrth i chi ystyried beth sy’n digwydd yn fanna, ac fe fedra i ddarparu rhywfaint o wybodaeth cefndir i chi ynglŷn â’r ddau achos penodol yna, os ydych chi’n dymuno.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Well, one interesting case, perhaps, as well is Finland, where Swedish is also an official language, and there are very strong journalistic trends and patterns there. The subscription model for newspapers is very strong there, and that then allows those papers to move from the print version to the digital version far more easily because the readership is already committed to the content—whatever form it takes, they are committed to it. So, perhaps you should consider what is happening there, and I could provide some background information to you on those two specific cases, if you wish.

[138]   Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Byddai unrhyw wybodaeth ychwanegol felly yn help. Rydym ni wedi mynd dros amser yn barod, felly os yw’n iawn gyda chi, fe wnawn ni ysgrifennu atoch chi am rai o’r cwestiynau ychwanegol, er enghraifft y gwaith mae’r BBC yn ei wneud ar newyddiaduraeth leol, a rhai cwestiynau penodol am y cyngor llyfrau. Felly, a yw’n iawn i ni ysgrifennu atoch chi?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Great. Any additional information would be of great help. We have gone over time already, so if it’s okay with you, we’ll write to you with additional questions, for example the work that the BBC is doing with local journalism, and some specific questions about the books council. So, is it okay for us to write to you?

[139]   Dr Jones: Ydy.

 

Dr Jones: Yes.

 

[140]   Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Wrth gwrs.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Of course.

[141]   Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn; sesiwn ddiddorol iawn. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd rhywun rhywle yn gwneud stori am yr hyn rydych wedi ei ddweud, os yn secsi neu beidio. Ewch i reportio fe eich hunain. [Chwerthin.] Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod mewn.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Great. Thank you very much to you for coming in for this very interesting session. I hope that somebody somewhere will write a story on what you’ve said, whether it’s sexy or not. Do go out and report it yourselves. [Laughter.] Thank you very much to you for coming in.

[142]   Dr Jones: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

 

Dr Jones: Thank you very much.

[143]   Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Diolch.

 

Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Thank you.

10:40

 

 

Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

[144]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn symud ymlaen at eitem 3, a’r papurau i’w nodi. Mae yna gryn dipyn o bapurau i’w nodi. Mae yna un ar gyllid ar gyfer addysg cerddoriaeth a mynediad at yr addysg honno: crynodeb o’r ymweliad gwych a gawsom i Ysgol Lewis Pengam, ynglŷn â’u gwaith nhw; papur ar ddyfodol S4C a thystiolaeth ychwanegol gan Huw Jones, cadeirydd Awdurdod S4C, ac Ian Jones, y prif weithredwr; wedyn, papur arall ar newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru, a thystiolaeth ychwanegol ddwys iawn, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud, gan Enders Analysis; papur arall ychwanegol gan Dr Andy Williams ac Emma Meese; ac wedyn papur gan y Pwyllgor Deisebau ynglŷn â’r deisebau sydd yn ymwneud â’n pwyllgor ni o ran thema. A ydy pawb yn hapus i nodi hynny?

 

Bethan Jenkins: We move on to item 3 and the papers to note. There are several papers to note. There is one on funding for and access to music education: a summary of the excellent visit that we had to Lewis School Pengam, with regard to their work; a paper on the future of S4C and additional evidence from Huw Jones, chairman of the S4C Authority, and Ian Jones, chief executive of S4C; then another paper on news journalism in Wales, and additional written evidence—a great deal of evidence—from Enders Analysis; and also a paper from Dr Andy Williams and Emma Meese; and then a paper from the Petitions Committee with regard to the petitions that are relevant to our committee. Is everyone content to note those?

[145]   Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.

 

Dai Lloyd: Content.

[146]   Bethan Jenkins: Unrhyw sylwadau? Mae gen i nodyn i ofyn a oes unrhyw sylwadau penodol gennych chi ar y deisebau? Na. Dim ar hyn o bryd. Grêt.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Any comments? I have a note to ask whether there any specific comments on the petitions? No. Not at the moment. Great. 

10:41

 

 

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting

 

 

Cynnig:

 

Motion:

 

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

 

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

 

 

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

 

 

[147]   Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 4: cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus gyda hynny?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Item 4 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting. Is everyone content?

 

 

[148]   Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.

 

Dai Lloyd: Content.

 

[149]   Bethan Jenkins: Bodlon. Diolch yn fawr, Dai.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Content. Thank you very much, Dai.

 

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:41.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:41.