.........
The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.
The final version will be published within five working days.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:27.
The meeting began at 09:27.
|
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan
Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
|
[1]
Bethan Jenkins:
Croeso i’r pwyllgor. Rydym
ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 1, sef cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau
a dirprwyon. Croeso i’r Aelodau. Os bydd larwm tân,
dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân
penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff,
ond ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i
fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu’n
ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y
pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu
clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a gellir
chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0. Nid oes angen cyffwrdd
â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall hyn amharu ar y
system, a gofalwch bod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. A
oes gan unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad fuddiant i’w ddatgan y bore
yma? Na. Rydym ni wedi cael ymddiheuriadau gan Lee Waters, a dylai
Suzy Davies fod yn ymuno â ni yn y
man.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Welcome to the committee meeting. We move on to item
1, which is introductions, apologies, substitutions and
declarations of interest. Welcome to the Members. If a fire alarm
should sound, please do leave the room through the exits, following
the instructions of the ushers, but we don’t expect a fire
drill. Everyone should turn their mobile phones off or on silent.
The Assembly operates bilingually and headsets are available to
hear interpretation and to adapt the sound for people who are hard
of hearing. Interpretation is available on channel 1, and you can
amplify the sound on channel 0. You don’t have to touch the
buttons on the microphones because this could impair the system,
and do ensure that the red light is on before you start speaking.
Does any Assembly Member have any declarations of interest to make
this morning? No. We have received apologies from Lee Waters, and
Suzy Davies should be joining us
shortly.
|
09:28
|
|
Newyddiaduraeth Newyddion yng Nghymru:
Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 4
News Journalism in Wales: Evidence Session 4
|
[2]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at
eitem 2, sef newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru a sesiwn
dystiolaeth 4, a chroeso i’r Athro Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones,
yr Athro cyfryngau a diwydiannau creadigol o Brifysgol Aberystwyth,
a hefyd i Ifan Morgan Jones, darlithydd mewn newyddiaduraeth ym
Mhrifysgol Bangor. Croeso i chi’ch dau. Mae lot, lot fawr o
gwestiynau gyda ni, fel y byddech yn tybio, ond y cwestiwn cyntaf
gen i yw: pa effaith mae’r dirywiad mewn newyddiaduriaeth
leol wedi ei gael ar newyddiaduriaeth yn gyffredinol? A ydy hynny
wedi effeithio ar y cymunedau mewn ffordd negyddol? Sut ydych
chi’n meddwl wedyn y maen nhw wedi ceisio ymdopi gyda hyn
mewn cymunedau ar hyd ac ar led Cymru? Diolch.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We move on to item 2, namely news journalism in Wales
and evidence session 4, and welcome to Professor Elin Haf
Gruffydd-Jones, the Professor of media and creative industries from
Aberystwyth University, and also Ifan Morgan Jones, lecturer in
journalism at Bangor University. Welcome to you both. We have a
great many questions for you, as you’d expect, but the first
question from me is: what impact has the decline in news journalism
in Wales has had on journalism in general? Has that affected the
communities in a negative manner? How do you think, then, that they
have tried to cope with that in communities across Wales? Thank
you.
|
[3]
Dr Jones: Wyt ti eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?
|
Dr
Jones: Would you like to go first?
|
[4]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Iawn, fe
wnaf i fynd yn gyntaf. Nid wyf i fod i gyffwrdd unrhyw beth, nac
ydw.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Yes, I’m happy to do so. I’m not
supposed to touch anything, am I.
|
[5]
Bethan Jenkins:
Dim byd.
[Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan Jenkins: Nothing. [Laughter.]
|
[6]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Iawn. Wel,
rydw i’n meddwl eich bod chi wleidyddion yn gwybod cystal ag
unrhyw un beth ydy’r effaith sydd yn digwydd pan rydych
chi’n teimlo nad yw newyddiaduraeth yn gweithio yn ddigonol,
lle mae poblogaethau yn mynd heb ddigon o wybodaeth, heb ddigon o
drafodaeth ar faterion ar sawl lefel o lywodraethiant, boed
hwnnw’n lefel llywodraethiant ar y lefel Undeb Ewropeaidd, ar
lefel Brydeinig, ar lefel Gymreig, a hefyd ar y lefelau lleol
a’r awdurdodau lleol ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae’r ffaith
bod gennym ni lai o newyddiaduraeth leol yn digwydd ar y lefelau
yna i gyd hefyd yn golygu bod yna lai o drafodaeth gyhoeddus a llai o wybodaeth ar gael
wrth i bobl wneud penderfyniadau mewn cyfnodau o
bleidleisio. Ond hefyd mae
angen inni fod yn ofalus ynglŷn â’r cyfnodau hynny
pan nad yw pobl yn pleidleisio, ac nid dim ond ar y pwyntiau yna
mewn tymor etholiadau y mae angen inni fod yn talu sylw at ddiffyg
trafodaeth a diffyg gwybodaeth.
|
Professor Gruffydd-Jones: Fine. Well, I
think you as politicians know as well as anyone just what the
impact is when you feel that journalism isn’t working
adequately, where populations don’t have sufficient
information and there isn’t sufficient discussion and debate
on issues relating to many levels of governance, be that governance
at European level, at the UK level, at a Welsh level, and also at
the local level and local authority level, and so on. So, the fact
that we have less local journalism happening on those levels does
means that there is less public debate and less information
available as people make decisions at times of elections and other
voting times. But we also need to be guarded in terms of those
periods when people aren’t casting their votes, and
it’s not just at those times in an electoral cycle that we
need to be fully aware of the lack of debate and the lack of
information out there.
|
09:30
|
[7]
Rwy’n meddwl bod dod â
phobl ifanc, fel rydym wedi bod yn trafod dros yr wythnosau
diwethaf yn enwedig, i mewn i’r arfer o ddarllen, yn ogystal
â gwylio neu wrando ar newyddiaduraeth a chreu newyddiaduraeth
eu hunain yn un o’r blaenoriaethau y gall y math yma o
bwyllgor, o bosib, fod yn ei ystyried. Rydym yn gwybod bod gennym
adroddiad newydd ym maes addysg sydd yn gosod cyfathrebu a
llythrennedd fel un o’r prif bwyntiau i arwain y cwricwlwm
newydd. Felly, byddem ni’n gweld bod yna le i ddod â
newyddiaduraeth—nid yn unig i bobl ifanc fod yn meddwl am
newyddiaduraeth fel rhywbeth iddyn nhw ei ddarllen a’i
‘consume-o’ a’i ddefnyddio, ond rhywbeth y
dylen nhw fod yn cyfrannu ato. Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod y pwyslais yna’n
rhywbeth a fyddai, wedyn, maes o law, yn gallu cryfhau
newyddiaduraeth leol.
|
I think that
bringing young people, as we’ve been discussing over the past
few weeks particularly, into the habit of reading, as well as
watching or listening to journalism and generating their own
journalism is one of the priorities that this kind of committee
could be considering. We know that there is a new report in the
field of education that places communication and literacy as one of
the main issues in the new curriculum. So, I would assume that
there is scope to bring journalism—not just for young people
to think of journalism as something that they consume and use, but
something that they should also be contributing to and generating.
So, I do think that that emphasis is something that could, in due
time, strengthen that local journalism.
|
[8]
Mae’n bwysig, wrth inni feddwl
am sut rydym ni’n rhoi cyfrifoldeb ar y system addysg ac ar y
genhedlaeth nesaf, i wneud iawn am fethiannau'r oedolion
presennol. Mae hynny’n
rhywbeth i’w ystyried, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae rhoi pwyslais ar
drio cael pobl ifanc i gymryd rhan mewn newyddiaduraeth leol yn un
peth, ond ni ddylai hynny fod yn ateb sy’n golygu nad oes yna
le i’r boblogaeth hŷn i fod yn gwneud hynny, neu’r
boblogaeth oedolion. Hynny ydy, ni ddylem basio ymlaen i’r
genhedlaeth nesaf yr hyn nad ydym wedi gallu llwyddo i’w
wneud ein hunain. Ni ddylem fod yn ‘infantile-eiddio’,
mewn ffordd, rai agweddau ar sut rydym eisiau gweld pethau’n
newid yn y dyfodol.
|
It is
important, as we consider how we put additional responsibilities on
the education system and the next generation, to make up for the
failings of people who are adults now—that’s something
that we need to bear in mind, of course. So, putting an emphasis on
encouraging young people to participate in local journalism is one
thing, but that shouldn’t be a solution that means that there
isn’t also a role for the adult population to also
participate. We shouldn’t pass on to the next generation what
we have failed to deliver ourselves. We shouldn’t be
infantilising, in a way, some aspects of how we want to see things
changing and developing for the future.
|
[9]
Ynghylch sut mae cymunedau
cynaliadwy, sut mae trafodaeth yn digwydd ar lefelau lleol a beth
ydy gwybodaeth pobl ynglŷn â’r hyn sydd ar gael yn
eu cymunedau nhw a’r hyn y gallan nhw gyfrannu at eu
cymunedau nhw—mae’r rôl sydd gan newyddiaduraeth
leol yn bwysig iawn, iawn. Ond byddwn i hefyd yn meddwl beth
ydy’r berthynas rhwng newyddiaduraeth leol—er
enghraifft, rydw i’n byw yn Aberystwyth, felly mae yna
newyddiaduraeth leol yn cael ei chynhyrchu yn fanna ar lefel
broffesiynol gan y Cambrian News yn ogystal â’r
newyddiaduraeth leol sy’n cael ei chynhyrchu yn wirfoddol gan
y papurau bro. Mae’n bwysig meddwl am y berthynas rhwng beth
sy’n lleol a beth sy’n genedlaethol, yn enwedig yn y
cyd-destun Cymreig—mae hynny’n bwysig. Nid wyf yn
meddwl y dylem fod yn disgwyl i newyddiaduraeth leol drafod pethau
sy’n cael eu cyfyngu gan y syniad o’r lleol. Mae
materion byd-eang, materion ar lefel wladwriaeth ac ar lefel
ranbarthol fydol i gyd yn bethau sy’n effeithio ar ein
bywydau ni bob dydd. Felly, ni fyddwn i am inni feddwl am
newyddiaduraeth leol fel rhywbeth sy’n blwyfol neu’n
gyfyngedig. Mae o’n bersbectif ar faterion sydd yn bwysig yn
ehangach, rwy’n meddwl. Felly, rhai sylwadau cychwynnol gen i
yn fanna.
|
In terms of
communities becoming sustainable, how discussion happens at a local
level and what the level of information is that people have about
what’s available in their communities and what they can
contribute to their communities—the role of local journalism
is crucially important. But I would also consider what the link is
between local journalism—for example, I live in Aberystwyth
and there is local journalism produced on a professional level
there by the Cambrian News, as well as the more localised
journalism that is produced voluntarily by the papurau bro.
It’s important to consider how the interrelationship between
what is local and what is national develops, particularly in the
Welsh context—that’s crucially important. I don’t
think that we should expect local journalism to discuss things that
are limited to the local. Global issues, state-level issues, as
well as regional global issues all impact on our daily lives.
Therefore, I wouldn’t want us to think of local journalism as
something that is highly parochial or very limited. It is a
perspective on issues that are of wider importance, I think. So,
those are just some initial comments from me there.
|
[10]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. Ifan.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. Ifan.
|
[11]
Dr Jones: Rydw i’n meddwl y buaswn i’n ategu
popeth yr oedd Elin yn ei ddweud yn fanna. Mae yna bryder mawr, yn
enwedig mewn amser o gyni economaidd pan mae nifer o
gynghorau’n gorfod gwneud toriadau ar hyn o bryd, nad yw
nifer o bobl yn ymwybodol neu efallai ddim yn rhan o’r
drafodaeth. Nid oes yna sffêr gyhoeddus leol, mewn ffordd,
mewn lle fel bod pobl yn gallu dylanwadu, efallai, neu’n
gwybod lle mae’r toriadau yna’n mynd i
syrthio.
|
Dr
Jones: I think I would endorse everything that Elin has just
said there. There are huge concerns, especially in times of
economic austerity where councils have to make cuts at present,
that a number of people aren’t aware or perhaps aren’t
even part of the discussion. There isn’t a local public
sphere, in a way, where people can influence, perhaps, or know
where those cuts are going to fall.
|
[12]
Rydw i’n poeni tipyn
bach—mae yna lot o sôn ar hyn o bryd am newyddion tra
lleol, neu hyperleol, felly, fel rhyw fath o ateb i nifer o’r
problemau yma. Rydw i wedi bod i nifer o gynadleddau sy’n
trafod hyn, ond beth sy’n fy mhryderu i, efallai, ydy’r
ffaith nad yw’r sail economaidd yno y tu cefn i newyddion
hyperleol. Mae’r cwestiwn ymhob un o’r
cynadleddau—maen nhw’n gallu bod yn eithaf iwtopaidd
mewn ffordd—ynglŷn â chymunedau lleol yn cymryd
rheolaeth o newyddiaduraeth. Ond ar ddiwedd y dydd,
rydw i’n meddwl bod angen newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol, ac
mae angen amser ac adnoddau ar bobl i fedru mynd i’r afael
â newyddiaduraeth ymchwiliadol er mwyn datgelu beth sy’n
mynd ymlaen yn eu cymunedau nhw. Dyna’r fath o
newyddiaduraeth sydd yn y pen draw yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth
mwyaf.
|
I’m a little bit concerned—there’s a great deal
of mention made about hyperlocal news as some kind of response to
these issues. I’ve been to a number of conferences that have
been discussing this, but what concerns me, perhaps, is that the
economic foundation isn’t there behind hyperlocal news. The
question in all of the conferences that I’ve
attended—they can be quite utopian in their point of
view—is about local communities taking control of journalism.
But, ultimately, I think that we need journalism that’s
professional, and that time and resources need to be available for
people to undertake investigatory journalism to discover
what’s going on in their communities. That’s the kind
of journalism that makes the greatest difference, I think.
|
[13]
Beth rydw i’n tueddu’i
weld yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, dim hyd yn oed ar lefel lleol
a lefel rhanbarthol, ond yn rhywbeth fel y Daily Post, ydy
lot o newyddion yn dod o rai ffynonellau megis, er enghraifft, y
llysoedd. Bron bob dydd yn y Daily Post, mae yna ryw drosedd
ar y dudalen flaen. Rydw i’n meddwl efallai, oherwydd y
cyfyngu ar yr adnoddau yna sydd yn digwydd, fod yna efallai
orddibyniaeth wedyn ar ffynonellau newyddion gweddol syml, lle mae
modd i’r newyddiadurwr fynd ac eistedd yn y llys drwy’r
dydd a bod y newyddion yn dod tuag atyn nhw.
|
What I tend to
see being done at present, not even at a local level or regional
level, but with something like the Daily Post, is a great deal of
news is coming from some sources, for example, the courts. Almost
every day in the Daily Post, there is some kind of crime
reported on the front page. I think that because there’s that
restriction on resources, there’s an over-reliance then on
news sources that are relatively simple, where the journalist can
go and sit in the court all day and that news comes to them.
|
[14]
Roedd eich cwestiwn chi’n
trafod y lleol yn benodol, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yna le i
boeni, fel roedd Elin yn sôn hefyd, am y cenedlaethol yng
Nghymru, a’r ffaith bod gennym ni, rydw i’n meddwl,
ddiffyg democrataidd difrifol yma yng Nghymru lle mae’r
ymchwil gan y BBC ac ICM, er enghraifft, wedi dangos bod
anwybodaeth yn helaeth ynglŷn â, hyd yn oed, er
enghraifft, pa rymoedd sylfaenol sydd gan y Cynulliad. Er
enghraifft, y nifer o bobl sydd ddim yn gwybod mai’r
Cynulliad sydd yn gyfrifol am iechyd, er enghraifft. Mae lot o bobl
yn meddwl mai’r Cynulliad sy’n gyfrifol am yr heddlu ac
yn y blaen. Felly, mae gen i bryderon go iawn am y diffyg
democrataidd yna yn ogystal â’r problemau
lleol.
|
Your question
discussed local issues specifically, but I think that there is room
for concern, as Elin said as well, about the national picture in
Wales and the fact that we have, I think, a serious democratic
deficit here in Wales. The research from the BBC and ICM, for
example, has shown that there is a widespread lack of knowledge,
even about what base of powers the Assembly has, for example.
People don’t know that the Assembly is responsible for
health, for example. Many people think that the Assembly is
responsible for policing and so on. So, I do have genuine concerns
about the democratic deficit, as well as the local issues.
|
[15]
Rydw i’n meddwl, yng Nghymru,
rydym ni wedi cael gwasg rhanbarthol masnachol eithaf cryf erioed,
ond rydw i’n meddwl, yn ogystal â phryderu am le mae
pobl yn cael eu newyddion lleol, fod angen i’r pwyllgor hefyd
bryderu am le mae pobl yn cael eu newyddion cenedlaethol, achos
rydw i’n meddwl, fel mae Brexit wedi dangos inni, pan fo yna
ryw fath o disconnect yn digwydd rhwng pobl a sefydliadau
gwleidyddol, os oes yna bobl wedyn yn rhyw fath o chwythu i fyny
rhyw stêm poblyddol, ‘O, fe wnawn ni gael gwared ar ryw
sefydliad,’ os nad yw pobl yn teimlo cysylltiad
â’r sefydliad yna, mae’n rhywbeth sy’n hawdd
iawn wedyn yn mynd i wynebu’r fwyell, rydw i’n
meddwl.
|
I think that,
in Wales, we have had a regional commercial press that’s been
quite strong for a long time, but, as well as being concerned about
where people get their local news from, I think the committee needs
to be concerned about where people receive their national news,
because I think, as Brexit has shown us, that where there is some
kind of disconnect between people and the political institutions,
if people then build up a head of populist steam about some kind of
political issue, ‘Oh, we’ll get rid of some
institution,’ and people lose that link and connection with
that institution, then it’s very easy for that institution to
face the axe, I think.
|
[16]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jest i ymateb i’ch consýrn
o ran newyddion cenedlaethol, rydym ni yn mynd i fod yn edrych ar
hynny hefyd, nid yn unig newyddion lleol, cymunedol. Jest i ddweud
hynny. Ond, a oes sylw ychwanegol gennych chi? Roeddech chi wedi
dechrau, Ifan, dweud am yr effaith ar bobl, eu bod nhw ddim yn
deall datganoli, ond a oes yna effeithiau penodol eraill i Gymru
rydych chi’n credu bod dirywiad newyddiaduriaeth leol wedi eu
cael? Er enghraifft, mae bwrdd ymgynghori Ofcom yn dweud bod
Cymru’n cael ei gwasanaethu yn llai nag ardaloedd eraill
Prydain o ran radio masnachol ac yn y blaen. Felly, a oes unrhyw
beth ychwanegol gennych chi i’w ddweud yn hynny o
beth?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Just to respond to your concern about national news,
we are going to be looking at that. It’s not just the local
and community news that we’re going to be covering. I just
want to make that point. But do you have any additional comments?
Ifan, you started to mention the impact of people not understanding
devolution, but are there any other specific issues of pertinence
to Wales that the decline of local journalism has caused? The Ofcom
consultative board has said that Wales is served less
comprehensively than other areas of the UK in terms of commercial
radio and so on. So, are there any additional points that
you’d like to make in relation to that?
|
[17]
Dr Jones: Wel, efallai un sgil-effaith penodol sy’n
dod i’r meddwl yn syth ydy’r ffaith, yn yr etholiadau
lleol diweddar, y gwnaethom ni weld bod yna nifer o seddi mewn
wardiau yng Nghymru lle’r oedd dim ond un ymgeisydd i fod yn
y cyngor. Hefyd, rydw i’n meddwl roedd yna un ward ym Mhowys
lle nad oedd yna ddim un ymgeisydd o gwbl. Rydw i’n meddwl
efallai fod hynny, i ryw raddau, yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith ei
bod hi’n amser o gyni ariannol. Efallai nad oes neb
ishio’r job amhoblogaidd o orfod gyrru’r toriadau yma
drwy’r cyngor, felly. Ac rydw i’n meddwl ei fod o
hefyd, efallai, yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod yna eithaf diffyg
cysylltiad rhwng pobl â’u hardaloedd lleol nhw, ac
efallai bod nifer o bobl sydd ddim yn gwybod beth ydy cyfrifoldebau
cyngor, pa fath o waith mae’r cyngor yn ei wneud, ac efallai
fod hynny’n arwain at sefyllfa lle mae yna ddiffyg hyder gan
bobl i ymgymryd â’r gwaith o ddylanwadu ar waith eu
cyngor lleol nhw neu roi eu hunain ymlaen fel aelodau
etholedig.
|
Dr
Jones: Well, one possible side-effect that comes to mind
immediately is that in the recent local elections we saw a number
of seats in wards in Wales where there was only one candidate for
the council. Also, I think there was one ward in Powys where there
were no candidates at all. I think that, to some extent, is a
reflection of the fact that it’s a time of financial
austerity and perhaps people don’t want this unpopular job of
enforcing cuts through the council. And it perhaps reflects the
fact that there is a lack of connection between people and their
local areas, and people may not know what the responsibilities of a
council are and what work the council does, and perhaps that leads
to a situation where people have a lack of confidence to get to
grips with that work of influencing their local council or putting
themselves forward as elected members.
|
[18]
Bethan Jenkins:
Elin.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Elin.
|
[19]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Un
o’r pethau eraill rydw i’n meddwl bod Ofcom—ac
mae lot fawr o dystiolaeth wedi eich cyrraedd chi’n barod
hefyd, onid oes, ynglŷn â mater plwraliaeth yn y wasg
a’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru yn enwedig, a’r ddibyniaeth
sydd yna ar ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus i fod yn cynhyrchu newyddion a
bod hynny’n arbennig o wir yn achos newyddion yn yr iaith
Gymraeg. Ac eithrio Golwg360, nid oes newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol
arall lle mae newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu talu. Nid ydy hynny i
ddweud nad oes yna newyddiaduraeth o safon yn digwydd mewn mannau
eraill, ac mae Ifan wrth fy ochr i’n fan hyn wedi dechrau
blog newyddiadurol neu newyddiaduraeth ar-lein, ond nid wyf
i’n meddwl eu bod nhw wedi cyrraedd y pwynt rŵan lle maen nhw’n talu ffi
broffesiynol. Felly, mae yna gwestiynau mawr ynglŷn ag a ydym
ni’n disgwyl i bobl fod yn gallu gwneud gyrfa allan o fod yn
newyddiadurwyr. A ydym ni’n disgwyl i newyddiadurwyr orfod
gwneud pethau eraill hefyd? A ydym ni’n disgwyl i
newyddiadurwyr fod yn athrawon, efallai, neu fod yn ymgynghorwyr
PR, neu’n lobïwyr? Ble mae’r ffin wedyn rhwng bod
yn newyddiadurwr proffesiynol sydd yn gallu edrych ar safbwyntiau
yn ddiduedd, neu mor ddiduedd â beth sy’n
bosibl?
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: One of the other things that I think Ofcom has
mentioned, and you have received a great deal of evidence about
already as a committee, is the issue of plurality in the press and
media in Wales, and the reliance on public service broadcasters to
be producing news, and that’s particularly true in the case
of Welsh language news. With the exception of Golwg360, there is no
other professional journalism where journalists are paid for their
work. That’s not to say that there isn’t quality
journalism happening elsewhere, and Ifan, by my side here, has
established a new journalistic blog or online journalism, but I
don’t think that they’ve reached the point yet where
they actually pay a professional fee to their contributors. So,
there are major questions as to whether we are expecting people to
be able to build a career in journalism. Do we expect journalists
to have to do other jobs? Do we expect journalists to be teachers,
or PR consultants, or lobbyists? And then, where is that boundary
between being a professional journalist who can look at views in a
totally impartial way, or in as impartial a way as possible?
|
[20]
Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod yna
bryderon yn codi ynglŷn â meddwl a ydym ni’n
disgwyl i newyddiaduraeth fod yn broffesiwn lle mae pobl yn cael eu
talu, a hefyd ynglŷn â chael amrywiaeth yn y wasg, nid
jest o ran persbectifau gwleidyddol, ond hefyd o ran lle mae yna
wahanol lefelau o arbenigedd mewn newyddiaduraeth. A ydym
ni’n disgwyl bod yna arbenigwyr ym maes iechyd sydd yn
newyddiadura yn lleol? A ydym ni’n disgwyl bod yna arbenigwyr
ym maes addysg sydd yn gallu dehongli polisïau’r
Llywodraeth, a pholisïau ar wahanol lefelau o lywodraeth
hefyd? A ydym ni’n disgwyl bod y newyddiaduraeth yna yn gallu
bod hefyd yn newyddiaduraeth sy’n canolbwyntio ar ardaloedd
lleol? Rydw i’n byw yn Aberystwyth ond rydw i’n dod yn
wreiddiol o ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru—sef, Delyn, fel mae’n
digwydd. Rydw i’n gwybod, yn yr ardal yna, fod gennym ni
newyddiaduraeth leol—mae yna newyddiaduraeth yn
fanna—ond a oes yna ddigon o arbenigedd yn yr ardal yna, neu
yn unrhyw ardal arall yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r gallu
i edrych ar themâu penodol fel addysg, neu fel iechyd, ac
edrych ar sawl lefel o bolisi? Felly, rydw i’n poeni am hynny
hefyd.
|
Then there are
some concerns as to whether we are expecting journalism to be a
profession where people are properly remunerated, and also in terms
of having plurality in the press; it’s not just a matter of
political perspectives, but also an issue of where there are
different levels of expertise within journalism. Do we expect to
have specialists in health who work in journalism at a local level?
Do we expect to have specialists in education who could interpret
government policy at all various different levels of government? Do
we expect that journalism to also be journalism that focuses on
localities? Now, I live in Aberystwyth, but I’m originally
from the north-east of Wales—Delyn as it happens. I know
that, in that area, yes, we do have local journalism—there is
journalism there—but is there the expertise in that area, or
in any other area of Wales, in terms of the ability to look at a
specific theme, such as health or education, and look at the
various levels of policy? So, I’m very concerned about that,
too.
|
[21]
Dr Jones: Fel rhywun sy’n dod o gefndir
newyddiadurol, rydw i wedi gweld effeithiau diffyg adnoddau i fedru
ymchwilio yn effeithiol i straeon newyddion. Rydw i’n meddwl,
bron a bod, fod ein gwasg ni yn lleol, ac yn genedlaethol i raddau
rŵan, ac yn rhanbarthol, yn troi mewn i ryw fath o lwyfan ar
gyfer datganiadau i’r wasg. Yr unig blwraliaeth sydd yna o
fewn ein gwasg, mewn gwirionedd, ydy, os ydy un ochr o’r
stori wedi cyhoeddi datganiad ac ochr arall y stori wedi cyhoeddi
datganiad hefyd, efallai rhywle yn y canol fod gennych chi’r
ddwy ochr i’r stori. Nid ydy hi’n sefyllfa lle
mae’r newyddiadurwyr yn gallu mynd allan gyda’u
hadnoddau newyddiadurol a’u llygaid ei hunan, wedyn, i
ddarganfod lle mae’r gwirionedd. Y cyfan maen nhw’n
gallu ei wneud ydy bod gennych chi ryw system adversarial,
bron a bod mewn llys, lle mae gennych chi’r case for the
defence a’r case for the prosecution
yn mynd benben â’i
gilydd.
|
Dr
Jones: As someone who comes from a journalistic background,
I’ve seen the effects of a lack of resources to be able to
investigate news stories effectively. I think that our local press
and national press, to some extent, and our regional press, are
turning into some kind of platform for press statements. The only
plurality that we have in our press is that if one side of the
story has published a press release and then the other side of the
story also publishes a press release, you may have both sides of
that story somewhere in the middle. We don’t have a situation
where the journalists can go out and use their own resources and
their own eyes to find out where the truth lies. All that they can
do at present is that you have some kind of adversarial system,
almost like a court, where you have the case for the defence and
the case for the prosecution going head to head.
|
[22]
O ran arbenigedd, pan wnes i
ddechrau, pan oeddwn i’n graddio o’r brifysgol ac yn
mynd ar brofiad gwaith i lefydd fel y Western Mail ac yn y
blaen, mi oedd gennych chi ohebwyr a oedd efo rhyw fath o
patch neu efo rhyw fath o friff penodol, bryd hynny. Nid ydw
i’n siŵr i ba raddau mae hynny’n wir erbyn hyn. Er
enghraifft, rydym ni’n gweld yn y Daily Post fod yr un
person yn adrodd ar newyddion y Cynulliad a’r newyddion
traffig—a ydy’r A55 ar gau y diwrnod hwnnw, a rhyw
broblemau fel yna. Felly, i fynd nôl at y diffyg democratiaeth
yna, mae rhywbeth fel yna yn achosi problemau mawr. O’m
profiad i fel newyddiadurwr, un diwrnod roeddwn i’n
ysgrifennu straeon am beth oedd yn mynd ymlaen mewn pwyllgorau fel
hyn, a’r hanner awr wedyn roeddwn i’n ysgrifennu
adroddiad ar griced a beth oedd yn mynd ymlaen yng Ngerddi Sophia.
Roedd gen i lot mwy o arbenigedd yn y Cynulliad nag oedd gen i yn y
criced, mae’n rhaid i mi gyfaddef. Ond dyna’r math o
bwysau mae’n newyddiadurwyr ni oddi dano fo. Mae’n mynd
yn system bron a bod yn rhyw fath o beiriant sosej, lle maen nhw
jest yn ‘churn-io’ straeon allan, un ar ôl y
llall, drwy’r dydd, heb unrhyw amser i godi’r ffôn
heb sôn am adael eu desgiau a mynd allan a chyfweld â
phobl wyneb yn wyneb.
|
In terms of the
expertise, even when I started, when I graduated from university
and went on work experience to places like the Western Mail
and so on, you had correspondents who had a patch or a specific
brief, at that time. I don’t know to what extent that is true
today. For example, you see in the Daily Post that the same
person reports on Assembly news and on traffic news—whether
the A55 is closed on that particular day, and problems like that.
So, to go back to that democratic deficit, something like that does
cause major problems. From my experience as a journalist, one day I
was writing stories about what was going on in committees like
this, and then half an hour later I was writing reports on the
cricket match at Sophia Gardens. I had a great deal more expertise
in the Assembly rather than the cricket, I have to say. But
that’s the kind of pressure that our journalists are under.
The system is almost turning into a kind of sausage factory where
they just churn these stories out, one after the other, day after
day, without ever having the time to pick up the phone, never mind
leaving their desks to meet people face to face.
|
[23]
Felly, rydw i’n meddwl, yn
ogystal â’r cwestiwn ‘A ydym ni’n gallu talu
newyddiadurwyr?’, mae hefyd y cwestiwn o ‘Faint o
newyddiadurwyr a ydym ni’n gallu eu talu?’ Os ydyn nhw
lawr i’r esgyrn erbyn hyn, efo rhyw fath o skeleton
crew yn rhedeg ein papurau lleol a rhanbarthol a chenedlaethol,
rydym ni mewn sefyllfa wedyn lle nad ydy’r newyddiaduraeth
ymchwiliadol bwysig yna yn cael ei gwneud.
|
So, I think, as
well as the question of whether we can pay journalists,
there’s the question of how many journalists we can pay. If
they’re down to the bare bones, with some sort of skeleton
staff running our regional and national papers, we’re in a
situation where that important investigatory journalism isn’t
being done.
|
[24]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen
at Hannah nawr, felly efallai y bydd cwestiynau am Delyn.
[Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Okay. We’re going to move on to Hannah now, so
some questions about Delyn, possibly. [Laughter.]
|
[25]
Hannah Blythyn: Thanks, Chair. I don’t know if that
was trying to persuade me to be really nice in my questions now.
[Laughter.] I’m friendly anyway.
|
09:45
|
[26]
You’ve already, in the opening, touched quite a bit on the
decline in traditional commercial print news, and the parallel
increase in hyper-local news. You’ve touched on it quite a
bit, but if you could expand a little bit on the extent to which
that can mitigate the decline in traditional news. I’m
particularly keen to hear whether there are ways, with better
support, that that can address the democratic deficit we’re
talking about as well.
|
[27]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Fe wnaf i
fynd gyntaf. Fe wnaf i ateb yn Gymraeg, achos fy mod i’n cael
defnyddio’r iaith Gymraeg yn y fan yma. Mae’r model
economaidd sydd wedi bod yn cynnal newyddiaduraeth yn y wasg dros
yr ugeinfed ganrif, i bob pwrpas, wedi torri erbyn hyn, ac mae
hynny yn golygu bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl sut yr ydym ni’n
gallu cynnal newyddiaduraeth fel proffesiwn, a chynnal cylchrediad
a chyrraedd pobl, a dod â gwybodaeth i bobl, a thrafod y
wybodaeth yna hefyd. Mae’n golygu bod yn rhaid i ni feddwl
mewn ffyrdd gwahanol.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Okay, I’ll go first on that. I’ll
answer in Welsh, since I do have the opportunity to do so here. The
economic model that has sustained press journalism over the
twentieth century, to all intents and purposes, is broken now, and
that means that we do have to consider how we can sustain
journalism as a profession, and sustain circulation and reach
people, and bring information to people, and discuss that
information, too. It does mean that we have to think in new and
different ways.
|
[28]
Nid yw pobl wedi stopio darllen ar
hyn o bryd. Fel rydym yn gwybod, mae pobl yn darllen yn fwy aml yn
ddyddiol, ac yn darllen ffynonellau sydd yn cael eu cyflwyno iddyn
nhw fel newyddiaduraeth, ac yn cael eu cyflwyno iddyn nhw fel
newyddion. Felly, mae’r appetite neu mae’r ysfa
i gael gwybodaeth ac i gael darllen ac i gael mynd at y cyfryngau
a’r newyddion yn dal yna. Ond beth sy’n rhaid i ni fod
yn glir ynglŷn ag o, wrth i ni drio datblygu modelau newydd,
ydy ein bod ni ddim yn ddibynnol ar ddim ond unigolion,
gwirfoddolwyr a phobl sydd ddim yn cael eu talu i gynhyrchu hwn, a
bod yna ddim buddsoddiad yn mynd i mewn i sut ydym ni’n gallu
cael model lle mae yna broffesiwn newyddiadurol yn bodoli. Felly,
tra rydym yn gallu defnyddio unigolion, pobl, dinasyddion, ac yn y
blaen, i hwyluso cylchredeg y newyddion neu gylchredeg straeon neu
gylchredeg gwybodaeth drwy eu tudalennau Facebook a Twitter, ac yn
y blaen ac yn y blaen, mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl ynglŷn
â sut ydym ni yn cynhyrchu yr wybodaeth a’r straeon yn y
lle cyntaf.
|
People
haven’t stopped reading. As we know, people are reading more
often on a daily basis, and are reading sources that are presented
to them as journalism, and sources that are presented to them as
news. Therefore, the appetite to access information and to read
information and to access journalism and the news is still there.
But what we have to be clear about, as we try to develop new
models, is that we don’t become reliant on individuals,
volunteers and people who are unpaid producing this material, and
that there is no investment going into how we can deliver a model
where you have a journalistic profession. So, whilst we can use
individuals and citizens in order to facilitate the circulation of
news or the circulation of stories or information through their
Facebook or Twitter feeds, and so on and so forth, we also have to
think about how we produce that information and those stories in
the first place.
|
[29]
Dr Jones: Mae gen i bryderon mawr ynglŷn â gallu
newyddion hyper-lleol i gymryd lle newyddiaduraeth broffesiynol. Os
ydych chi’n meddwl am newyddiadurwyr ar bapurau newydd, er
enghraifft, fe fyddan nhw wedi cael hyfforddiant mewn pethau fel
llywodraeth leol, byddant wedi cael hyfforddiant mewn pethau fel
enllib, dirmyg llys, ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae’n anodd iawn
os nad oes gennych y sgiliau craidd yna—wedi cael eich gyrru
i ffwrdd ar gwrs, efallai, i ddysgu’r sgiliau
yma—mae’n anodd iawn wedyn i chi fedru torri straeon.
Os nad ydych chi’n gwybod y gyfraith, er enghraifft, yn
ymwneud efo enllib neu ddirmyg llys, sut ydych chi’n mynd i
wybod os ydych chi’n cael cyhoeddi stori ai peidio? Sut ydych
chi’n gwybod beth sydd yn gyfreithlon? Sut ydych chi’n
gwybod os ydych chi’n cael adrodd ar gynnwys cyfarfod
cyhoeddus, er enghraifft, neu ddatganiad i’r wasg mewn
cynhadledd i’r wasg gan yr heddlu?
|
Dr
Jones: I have major concerns about the ability of hyper-local
news to take the place of professional journalism. When you think
about the journalists on a newspaper, for example, they will have
had training in such things as local government, they’ll be
trained in libel, contempt of court, and so on. So, it’s very
difficult if you don’t have those core skills—you may
have been sent on a course to learn those skills—then
it’s very difficult for you to break stories. If you
don’t know the law, for example, relating to libel or
contempt of court, then you won’t know whether you can
publish a story or not. How will you know whether it’s legal?
How will you be able to report on the contents of a public meeting,
for example, or a press release in a police press conference?
|
[30]
Felly, mae gen i bryderon mawr iawn
bod y newyddion hyper-lleol yn mynd i allu camu mewn i’r
blwch, ac nid yn unig oherwydd yr adnoddau. Mae nifer o’r
bobl sy’n ymwneud â newyddion hyper-lleol yn bobl sydd
efo swyddi llawn amser ar yr un pryd, ac nid oes ganddyn nhw yr
amser i fynd i ddigwyddiadau, nid oes ganddyn nhw yr amser i fuddsoddi mewn newyddiaduraeth
ymchwiliadol yn yr un modd ag y byddai tîm da o newyddiadurwyr
proffesiynol, gobeithio, efo. Mae yna gwestiynau ynglŷn â’r materion o ran
pa mor ddiduedd mae newyddiadurwyr hyper-lleol yn mynd i fod hefyd,
achos fel arfer maen nhw yn mynd i fod yn gwneud y gwaith yn
wirfoddol. Mae pobl sy’n gwneud y gwaith yn wirfoddol fel
arfer yn gwneud hynny oherwydd rhesymau yn ymwneud â rhyw
duedd wleidyddol. Er enghraifft, mae yna gwpwl o flogiau
rwy’n eu dilyn yn yr ardal rwy’n byw ynddi yn
ne-orllewin Cymru sydd yn gwneud job da iawn o roi gwybod i mi beth
sy’n mynd ymlaen yn yr ardaloedd yna, fel yng Nghyngor Sir
Gâr, er enghraifft, ond y broblem ydy eu bod nhw fel arfer yn
flogiau pleidiol y naill ffordd neu’r llall. Mae yna ryw
agenda wleidyddol ynddyn nhw beth bynnag, ac maen nhw’n
tueddu i ganolbwyntio eu dryll i gyfeiriad y pleidiau nad ydynt yn
cytuno efo nhw. Felly, mae yna lot o gwestiynau ynglŷn ag
amser, adnoddau ac arbenigedd mewn pethau fel dirmyg llys ac
enllib, ac yn y blaen, ac hefyd ar ben hynny yr ymateb pleidiol
yma, sef bod lot o bobl sy’n mynd i fod eisiau gwneud y
gwaith yma’n wirfoddol ddim yn mynd i’w wneud o allan o
the goodness of their heart, mewn ffordd. Maen nhw’n
mynd i’w wneud o am eu bod nhw eisiau dylanwadu ar y
drafodaeth gyhoeddus sydd yn mynd ymlaen yr un pryd.
|
So, I
do have major concerns that hyper-local news isn’t going to
be able to step up to the mark, and not just with regard to the
resources. Many people involved in hyper-local news also have
full-time jobs at the same time, and they don’t have time to
go to events, they don’t have the time to invest in
investigative journalism in the way that a good team of
professional journalists would, hopefully. There are questions
about issues with regard to the impartiality of hyper-local
journalists, because usually they’re going to be volunteers,
and people who undertake this work voluntarily usually do so
because of reasons relating to some kind of political motivation.
For example, there are some blogs that I follow in the area in
which I live in south-west Wales that do a very good job of letting
me know what’s happening in those areas, such as in
Carmarthenshire County Council, for example, but the problem is
that they’re party political blogs one way or the other.
There is a political agenda there, and they tend to focus on those
particular parties and the failings of those parties that they
don’t agree with. So, there is a question about the time, the
resources and the expertise in such issues as libel, contempt of
court, and so on, and on top of that there’s this partiality
as well, that people who want to do this work voluntarily
aren’t just going to do it out of the goodness of their heart
in a way. They’re going to be doing it for the reason that
they want to influence the public discourse.
|
[31]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you.
|
[32]
Hannah Blythyn: I think you covered my other question.
|
[33]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jest cwestiwn clou. Rwy’n credu
bod Elin wedi siarad am hyn yn gynharach. A allwch chi jest esbonio
tipyn bach ynglŷn â’ch gwefan newydd, Nation.Cymru?
Sut ydych chi wedi mynd ati i sefydlu honno? A oes arian wedi bod y
tu ôl i hynny, neu a ydy e’n hollol wirfoddol ar hyn o
bryd?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Just a brief question. I think that Elin mentioned
this earlier. Can you just explain a little more about your new
website Nation.Cymru? How have you gone about establishing that?
Has there been some funding behind it, or is this all entirely
voluntary at present?
|
[34]
Dr Jones: Wel, mae’n wefan wirfoddol. Beth wnaethom
ni oedd, oherwydd nad oes gwasanaeth newyddion cenedlaethol yn
Saesneg, y pryder oedd gen i, a sawl un arall, oedd, o ran y math o
drafodaeth genedlaethol sy’n mynd rhagddi yn Gymraeg drwy
wefannau fel Golwg 360, BBC Cymru Fyw, Barn ac yn y blaen,
nad oes yr un math o drafodaeth genedlaethol yn digwydd yn Saesneg,
a bod hynny’n cyfrannu at y diffyg democrataidd sydd gennym
ni ar hyn o bryd. Felly, y bwriad oedd sefydlu gwasanaeth newyddion
cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, a fyddai’n cael ei redeg ddim er
elw. Rwy’n meddwl mai rhan o’r broblem gyda nifer
o’r papurau masnachol sy’n cael eu cynnal gan Trinity
Mirror, er enghraifft, yw eu bod nhw’n gorfod cynhyrchu lot
fawr o arian ar gyfer eu shareholders. Felly, drwy greu
rhywbeth dim er elw, er enghraifft, o leiaf byddai unrhyw arian a
fyddai’n dod allan o’r peth yn cael ei
fuddsoddi’n syth nôl mewn i’r newyddiaduraeth
ymchwiliadol.
|
Dr
Jones: Well, it is a voluntary website. What we did was,
because there’s a lack of a national news service in English,
the concern that I had, and several others, in terms of the kind of
national debate that’s being had in Welsh, through websites
such as Golwg 360, BBC Cymru Fyw and Barn and so on, was
that there wasn’t perhaps that same kind of debate happening
in English, and that contributes to the democratic deficit that we
currently have. So, the intention was to establish a news service
on a national basis in English that would be run as a
not-for-profit concern. I think that part of the problem that we
have with the several of the commercial newspapers that we have
under Trinity Mirror, for example, is that they have to generate a
lot of money for their shareholders. So, by creating something that
was not-for-profit, at least, any kind of money derived from it
would be reinvested back into investigative journalism.
|
[35]
Y bwriad oedd lansio’r wefan
yma tua diwedd yr haf, pan fydd tymor y Cynulliad yn ailddechrau,
ond, yn sgil cyhoeddi’r etholiad cyffredinol, dyma
ni’n penderfynu y byddai hynny’n amser da i
wthio’r cwch i’r dŵr, er mwyn cymryd mantais
o’r holl ddiddordeb gwleidyddol fyddai yno ar y pryd. Mae e
wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus. Rydym ni eisoes wedi cael dros
1,000 o bobl yn ein dilyn ar Facebook, ac, ers lansio bythefnos yn
ôl, mae dros 45,000 o bobl wedi ymweld â’r safle.
Felly, mae’r ymateb wedi bod yn dda iawn hyd yma. Mi wnaethom
ni godi, rhwng mis Ionawr a rŵan, ryw £4,500 drwy bobl yn
rhoi rhoddion tuag at y wefan yma. Mae’n dipyn o arian ac yn
dangos bod yna deimladau cryf yng Nghymru ynglŷn
â’r diffyg gwasanaethau newyddion cenedlaethol sydd yng
Nghymru. Ond mae hefyd yn amlwg yn ffigwr rhy fach i fedru cyflogi
newyddiadurwyr. Rwy’n meddwl bydd angen o leiaf ryw
£75,000 er mwyn gallu cyflogi newyddiadurwyr i weithio’n
broffesiynol ar y safle. Ond beth rydym ni’n
gobeithio’i wneud yw, o’r arian yna nad ydym yn ei
wario ar ffurfwedd y wefan, a chreu’r feddalwedd, ac yn y
blaen, sydd y tu cefn i’r wefan, rydym ni wedyn yn buddsoddi
efo’r newyddiaduraeth freelance, a rhoi’r cyfle
i newyddiadurwyr freelance ymchwilio mewn i faterion yn
ymwneud â gwleidyddiaeth Cymru, a’r Cynulliad, a
llywodraeth leol, ac yn blaen, mewn rhagor o fanylder.
|
The intention
was to launch this website towards the end of the summer, when the
Assembly reconvenes, but, as a result of the announcement of the
snap general election, we decided it was a good time to launch the
site, because of the level of political interest at that time.
It’s been very successful. We’ve already had over 1,000
people following us on Facebook, and, since launching a fortnight
ago, more than 45,000 people have visited the site. So, the
response has been very good so far. Between January and now,
we’ve raised around £4,500 through donations to the
website. It’s a significant amount of money, which shows that
there are strong feelings in Wales about the lack of national news
services in Wales. But it’s also too small a figure to be
able to employ journalists. I think we’d need at least
£75,000 to be able to employ journalists to work
professionally on the site. But what we hope to do is to use the
funds that we don’t use on the website itself, and the
development of the software, and so on, behind the sites, by
investing them in freelance journalists, and to give those
journalists the opportunity to investigate issues relating to
politics in Wales, the Assembly, local government, and so on, in
more detail.
|
[36]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Ac mi wnes i ddwyn cwestiwn
Dai, sori, felly, a oes mwy o gwestiynau?
[Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. And I stole Dai’s question, so I do
apologise. Do you have any further questions?
[Laughter.]
|
[37]
Dai Lloyd: Roedd hi’n anrhydedd eich clywed
chi’n ei gyflwyno mewn modd mor ddeheuig, Gadeirydd.
[Chwerthin.]
|
Dai
Lloyd: It was an honour to see you express it so skilfully,
Chair. [Laughter.]
|
[38]
Bethan Jenkins:
Dai, plis caria mlaen gyda’r
cwestiynu. [Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Please continue with your questions, Dai.
[Laughter.]
|
[39]
Dai Lloyd: Roedd gyda fi ddiddordeb yn beth roeddet
ti’n ei ddweud, ac rwyt ti wedi ei nodi yn dy bapur di hefyd,
ynglŷn â’r ffaith mai ychydig o gymhelliad sydd i
wirfoddolwyr adrodd mewn ffordd sydd yn niwtral yn wleidyddol.
Felly, yn dilyn o’r gosodiad yna—a newyddiaduraeth
hyperleol ydy hynny, yn naturiol—a ydy’r system yn
wahanol efo’r wasg fasnachol? A ydych chi’n credu bod y
wasg fasnachol allan fanna yn niwtral yn wleidyddol? Buaswn
i’n fodlon dadlau i’r gwrthwyneb yn fanna, ond rwyf i
jest yn rhoi y gosodiad yna gerbron. Os ydych chi eisiau dweud bod
pobl sydd yn newyddiadura yn dra lleol felly yn mynd i fod yn
wleidyddol ragfarnllyd mewn ffordd, byddwn i’n fodlon dadlau
bod pob newyddiaduraeth yn wleidyddol ragfarnllyd. Rwyf i jest yn
rhoi hynny allan fan yna i chi gael ateb.
|
Dai
Lloyd: I was interested in what you said, and which you noted
in your paper also, about the fact that there is little
encouragement for volunteers to report in a way that is politically
neutral. So, following on from that point, which, of course,
relates to hyperlocal journalism, is the system different with the
commercial press? Do you think that the commercial press out there
is politically neutral? I would perhaps say not, but I’m just
putting that forward. If you are saying that people who are
involved in hyperlocal journalism are going to be politically
biased in some way, well I would argue that all journalism has some
sort of political bias. I’m just chucking that out there for
you.
|
[40]
Dr Jones: Buaswn i’n dadlau ei bod hi’n
amhosib cynhyrchu newyddiaduraeth sydd ddim yn rhagfarnllyd. Mewn
ffordd, rydych chi’n gallu ysgrifennu stori newyddion mewn
ffordd sydd yn ymddangosiadol ddiduedd, ond, yn y pen draw, rydych
chi’n gorfod penderfynu beth mae’r stori amdano, rydych
chi’n gorfod penderfynu pa ffeithiau rydych chi’ mynd
i’w cynnwys, rydych chi’n gorfod penderfynu ym mha
drefn mae’r ffeithiau. Rwy’n gwybod bod lot yn dadlau,
ar hyn o bryd, fod y wasg fasnachol, ddim yn gwbl—.
Mae’r geiriau bias a fake news yma
yn cael eu taflu o gwmpas lot.
Mae hynny’n wir yn amlwg yn
achos rhai papurau. Nid wyf i’n meddwl y buasai unrhyw un yn
edrych ar dudalen flaen y Daily Express a’r Daily
Mail, er enghraifft, neu’r Daily Mirror, a dadlau
nad oes tuedd amlwg wleidyddol yna. Ac mae hynny hefyd yn arwydd o
wendid masnachol y wasg, oherwydd beth sy’n digwydd erbyn hyn ydy, oherwydd bod
papurau newydd yn llai hyfyw yn fasnachol, yr unig bobl sy’n
mynd i fod yn berchen ar bapurau newydd ydy pobl sydd eisiau eu
defnyddio nhw fel rhyw fath o geg offeryn er mwyn cael eu safbwynt
nhw allan.
|
Dr
Jones: I would argue that it’s impossible to generate
journalism that doesn’t have some kind of bias, because you
could write a news story in way that appears to be impartial, but,
ultimately, you do have to decide what the story is about, you have
to decide which facts you’re going to include, and in what
order those facts appear. I know that many people argue at present
that the commercial press is not—. You have the words
‘bias’ and ‘fake news’ being bandied about
a lot. That’s obviously true in the case of some newspapers.
If you look at the front page of the Daily Express and the
Daily Mail or the Daily Mirror, you couldn’t
argue that there wasn’t a kind of obvious political bias
there. But that’s also a sign of the commercial weakness of
the press, because what happens now is that, because newspapers are
less commercially viable, the only people who are going to own
newspapers are the people who want to use them as a kind of
mouthpiece to get their point of view out there.
|
[41]
O ran darlledu, rwy’n cytuno
bod yna rhywfaint o duedd o fewn, er enghraifft, y BBC, ond
rwy’n meddwl fod y duedd yna oherwydd o le y mae’r
newyddion yn dod mewn gwirionedd, ac mae newyddiadurwyr yn naturiol
yn mynd i gyfeiriad y sefydliadau gwleidyddol sydd yn cynhyrchu lot
o newyddion iddyn nhw yn
eithaf rhwydd. Felly, rwy’n meddwl, er enghraifft, os ydych
chi’n edrych ar y ffaith fod gennym ni broblem yng Nghymru
bod y newyddion yn San Steffan yn cael lot mawr iawn o sylw tra bo
newyddion o’r Senedd, er enghraifft, ddim, rwy’n meddwl
bod hynny oherwydd bod corfforaethau fel y BBC i raddau wedi
adeiladu eu hunain o gwmpas y sefydliadau sydd yn rhoi lot fawr o
newyddion iddyn nhw. Er
enghraifft, roedd yna ddadl yn yr Alban ar driniaeth y BBC o refferendwm annibyniaeth yr
Alban a bod yna lot o duedd yn fanna, ond rwy’n meddwl fod
hynny yn fwy i wneud efo’r ffaith fod holl newyddiadurwyr
gorau’r BBC yn San Steffan yn chwilio am straeon yn fanna
achos dyna’r ffynhonnell straeon orau a oedd yn cyrraedd mwy
o’r boblogaeth ac a oedd yn fwy perthnasol i boblogaeth y
Deyrnas Unedig.
|
In terms of
broadcasting, I agree that there is some kind of bias within, for
example, the BBC, but I think that bias is there because of where
the news is coming from, and journalists will naturally gravitate
towards the political institutions that generate a great deal of
news for them relatively easily. So, I think, for example, if you
look at the fact that we have an issue in Wales that the news at
Westminster receives a great deal of attention, whereas the news
from the Senedd doesn’t, I think that that is the result of
the fact that corporations such as the BBC have built themselves
around the institutions that generate a great deal of news for
them. For example, there was a debate in Scotland on the BBC's
treatment of the Scottish independence referendum and that there
was a great deal of bias there, but I think that was more to do
with the fact that all the best BBC journalists were based in
Westminster and that was the best source of news and information
that was reaching more of the population and was more pertinent to
the population of the United Kingdom.
|
[42]
Felly, nid wyf i’n meddwl bod
yna duedd bwriadol o fewn sefydliadau fel y BBC. Rwy’n meddwl
ei fod jest yn dod o’r ffaith bod y sefydliadau newyddiadurol
wedi adeiladu eu hunain o gwmpas y sefydliadau gwleidyddol oherwydd
bod y Deyrnas Unedig yn wlad sydd wedi ei chanoli’n
wleidyddol i’r fath raddau ei bod yn anochel wedyn fod yna
rhyw fath o dwll du y mae’r holl newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu
sugno tuag ato fo, felly. Felly, buaswn i’n cytuno, ac nid wyf yn dadlau am eiliad
bod y newyddiaduraeth fasnachol, neu sydd wedi cael ei
hariannu’n gyhoeddus yn y Deyrnas Unedig, yn ddiduedd. Rwyf i
jest yn meddwl, efo’r newyddion hyperleol, fod hyd yn oed
llai o gymhelliad i fod yn ddiduedd. Beth rydych chi’n ei
gael ydy twf pethau fel rydym ni wedi’u gweld yn yr Unol
Daleithiau, fel Breitbart News, sef gwasanaethau newyddion wedi eu
sefydlu’n gyfan gwbl er mwyn gwthio agenda rhyw ochr
wleidyddol neu ryw blaid wleidyddol.
|
Therefore, I do
not think that there is a deliberate tendency within organisations
such as the BBC. I think it's just down to the fact that the
journalistic institutions have built themselves around the
political institutions because the United Kingdom is a country that
has been centralised politically to such an extent that it is
inevitable then that there is some kind of black hole that all of
the journalists are being sucked into. So, I would agree, and I
wouldn’t argue for a second that commercial journalism or
publicly funded journalism in the United Kingdom is unbiased. But I
think that, with hyperlocal news, there is even less incentive to
be impartial. What you get is the growth of things as we’ve
seen in the United States, sites such as Breitbart News, namely
news services that have been established solely to push the agenda
of a political side or a political party.
|
[43]
Os ydych chi’n meddwl am paham
wnaeth y Blaid Lafur gystal yn yr etholiad sydd newydd fod, os
ydych chi’n edrych ar ddylanwad gwefannau fel The Canary a
Skuawk Box, a rhyw bethau fel yna ar Facebook, roedd y gwefannau
hyn yn cyrraedd miliynau o bobl. Nid oeddwn i’n dilyn un o’r gwefannau yma, ond
roeddent yn ymddangos yn gyson yn fy ffrwd newyddiadurol oherwydd
bod fy ffrindiau i yn y eu rhannu nhw’n gyson ac yn meddwl eu
bod nhw’n ffynonellau dibynadwy a di-duedd ar gyfer y
newyddion. Felly, rwy’n
meddwl, pan fydd newyddion yn mynd yn wirfoddol, rydym ni wedyn yn
gweld sefyllfa lle efallai—. Mae’n iach i raddau
oherwydd, trwy gael nifer fawr o safleoedd gyda thuedd ar-lein,
efallai ei fod o’n dadwneud rhywfaint o’r duedd mwy
tuag at yr ochr adain dde sydd yn y wasg fasnachol a’r
papurau newydd Prydeinig felly. Ond y broblem wedyn ydy eich bod
chi’n cael rhyw fath o siambrau atsain yn datblygu a bod yn
hollol gyndyn mai nhw sydd yn gywir oherwydd mai dim ond un
safbwynt ar y newyddion y maen nhw’n ei gael gan y
ffynhonnell newyddion y maen nhw wedi’i dewis.
|
If you think
about why the Labour Party did so well in the recent election, if
you look at the influence of websites such as The Canary and Skuawk
Box, and others on Facebook, those websites reached millions of
people. I didn’t follow any of those sites, but they did
appear frequently in my news stream because my friends were sharing
them and thought that they were dependable and impartial sources of
news. So, I think that, when news does turn into a voluntary
concern, then I think we see a situation where—.
It’s healthy to some extent because, by having a great many
online sites with perhaps their bias and a particular line, then
that might undo somewhat the tendency more towards the right wing
in the commercial press and the UK newspapers. But the problem then
is that you get echo chambers developing and people are convinced
that they’re right because they’ve only heard one point
of view from the news source that they’ve chosen.
|
[44]
Bethan Jenkins:
Elin.
|
[45]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Jest
i ychwanegu’n fyr iawn ynglŷn â didueddrwydd, rydym
ni’n gyfarwydd efo’r model traddodiadol bod y
didueddrwydd yn y cyfryngau darlledu i fod i gael ei gynnal, yn
sicr, ar draws cyfres o raglenni neu o fewn rhaglen benodol ei hun,
onid ydym? Felly, mae gennym ni fodel sydd yn rhoi cyfrifoldeb ar
gynhyrchydd y newyddion i roi didueddrwydd i mewn, p’un a
ydym ni’n meddwl bod hynny’n gweithio’n
effeithiol bob tro neu beidio. Mae hynny i ryw raddau yn fater
arall, ond dyna ydy’r egwyddor sydd efo newyddiaduriaeth
ddarlledu yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol.
|
Professor Gruffydd-Jones: If I
could just briefly add to that, in terms of impartiality, we are
familiar with the traditional model where impartiality in the
broadcast media is to be maintained certainly across a series of
programmes or within specific individual programmes, aren’t
we? So, we have a model that places the responsibility on the news
producer to provide impartiality, whether or not we think that
always works effectively. That, to a certain extent, is another
issue, but that is the principle in terms of broadcast journalism
in the UK.
|
[46]
Tra, wrth gwrs, efo’r wasg
brint, nid ydy’r gofyniad yna yno o gwbl, ac, wrth gwrs, beth
ydym ni’n ei weld wedyn ydy mai’r safbwyntiau
gwleidyddol yna sydd efo’r modd i gyrraedd yr arian
angenrheidiol neu’r adnoddau angenrheidiol i gynnal a chreu
gwasg ydy’r safbwyntiau gwleidyddol yna sydd wedyn yn gallu
creu papurau dyddiol a chreu penawdau dyddiol yn brint, ond hefyd,
wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n mynd i mewn i’r byd
digidol.
|
Whereas, with
the print media, that requirement simply doesn’t exist, and
what we then see is that it is those political views that have the
means to access the necessary funds or the necessary resource to
create and maintain a press that appear in daily newspapers and
generate print headlines, and, of course, that also filters through
into the digital environment.
|
10:00
|
[47]
Felly, un o’r cwestiynau,
efallai, ydy ystyried, wel, ocê, mae yna draddodiad o
ddidueddrwydd, bwriad o ddidueddrwydd, yn y cyfryngau darlledu, ond
dim traddodiad o ddidueddrwydd yn y cyfryngau print. Ond, pan fydd
popeth yn dod at ei gilydd, fel y mae wedi gwneud ers y 10 i 15
mlynedd diwethaf yma, yna, ble mae’r ffiniau yna i’r
person sy’n defnyddio’r cyfryngau, onid e, a’r
person sy’n eu darllen? A ydy’r newyddion cytbwys sydd
i fod i gael ei gyflwyno drwy’r BBC ac ITV ac yn y blaen, a
Sky hefyd wrth gwrs, i fod wedyn i eistedd ochr yn ochr â
newyddion sydd ddim yn cael ei gyflwyno mewn ffordd gytbwys a heb
unrhyw fwriad i’w gyflwyno yn gytbwys? Ond mae’r
darllenydd yn edrych ar bopeth ar yr un pryd a ddim o
angenrheidrwydd yn gwahaniaethu bod ‘hwn’ wedi cael ei
gynhyrchu mewn system ddiduedd a bod ‘hwn’ wedi cael ei
gynhyrchu mewn system sydd yn dweud yn glir iawn nad ydyn
nhw’n ddiduedd, onid e? A ydy’r eglurder yna yn dod
drwodd yn ddigonol?
|
So, one of the questions, perhaps, is to
consider, well, okay, there is a tradition of impartiality, an
intention to be impartial, in the broadcast media, but there is no
such tradition in the print media. But, when everything comes
together, as it has done over the past 10 to 15 years, then where
are those lines for those people using that material and reading
that material? Is the balanced news that is supposed to be provided
through the BBC and ITV and so on, as well as Sky of course,
supposed to then sit alongside news that is not presented in a
balanced way, but is presented without any intention of providing
any impartiality? But the consumer looks at all of these things
simultaneously and does not differentiate between one thing that
has been produced within rules of impartiality and another that
says very clearly that it is not impartial. Is that clarity
available to the consumer?
|
[48]
Beth ydy’r entry level i
fynd i mewn i greu papur? Pan wyf i’n dweud
‘papur’, nid wyf i’n sôn am bapur, yn amlwg;
rwy’n sôn am newyddiaduriaeth, neu bapurau newydd, neu
ffynonellau newyddion—newyddion chwaraeon, newyddion
diwylliannol a newyddion gwleidyddol. A ydy’r entry
level yna yn gallu cymell, ddywedwn ni, rywun fel Ifan, neu
bobl o wahanol safbwyntiau eraill, i fedru mynd i mewn i’r
farchnad yna i greu, i gyfrannu at y plwraliaeth sydd gennym ni?
Achos nid ydy’r plwraliaeth yn mynd i gael ei greu drwy fod
un papur newydd yn penderfynu, ‘O, rydym ni am fod yn fwy
cytbwys’, nac ydy? Mae’r plwraliaeth yn mynd i fod
oherwydd bod yna fwy o leisiau yn cyrraedd y lle marchnad
yna.
|
What is the
entry level in terms of creating a paper? When I use the word
‘paper’, I’m not just talking about hard copy;
I’m talking about journalism, or newspapers, or news
sources—of sports news, cultural news and political news,
published in all sorts of ways. Is that entry-level encouraging
people, say, such as Ifan, or people from different backgrounds and
views, to go into that market in order to contribute to the
plurality that we have? Because the plurality isn’t going to
be generated by having one paper deciding, ‘Well, we’re
going to be more balanced’, is it? You get that plurality
because there are more voices contributing to that marketplace.
|
[49]
A ydy’r entry level yn
rhy uchel? Mae rhai ohonoch chi efallai yn gwybod, ynglŷn
â fy nghefndir i, fy mod i wedi bod yn rhan o’r cwmni a
oedd yn trio sefydlu papur dyddiol yn yr iaith Gymraeg
dros—wel, pryd gwnaethom ni gychwyn? Tua 1999 neu rywbeth fel
yna y gwnaethom ni gychwyn arno fo fel prosiect ymchwil i weld pa
mor bosibl a hyfyw y byddai fo, a beth oedd y modelau a oedd yn
digwydd mewn gwledydd eraill. Ac, yn ystod y cyfnod yna, tra oeddem
ni’n trio rhoi cwmni poblogaidd at ei gilydd, gyda
chyfranddaliadau eang, gwnaethom ni lwyddo i godi tua
£350,000-£375,000 mewn arian cyfalaf, a swm tipyn yn llai
wedyn mewn arian refeniw, i drio dod â phobl at ei gilydd i
drio cyrraedd yr entry level yna, i drio gwneud ymgais o
ddifrif.
|
Now, is the
entry level too high? Well, some of you will know, perhaps, about
my background, that I was part of the company that strived to
establish a Welsh language daily newspaper, over—. When did
we start that? I think it was around 1999 that we started that
research project to see how viable and possible it would be, and
what were the models in other nations. And, during that period,
while we were trying to put a company together with a broad range
of shareholders, we managed to raise around
£350,000-£375,000 in capital funds, and a smaller amount
in revenue, in order to try and bring people together to reach that
entry-level, to make a serious attempt at establishing a
newspaper.
|
[50]
Felly, mae’r lefel, sef faint o
gyfalaf sydd ei angen arnoch chi i ddechrau rhywbeth lle y byddwch
chi maes o law yn mynd i allu talu newyddiadurwyr yn uchel iawn,
iawn, iawn. Ac felly, mae hynny’n un o’r problemau,
rydw i’n meddwl, ynglŷn â sut i gael gwahanol
leisiau yn y byd newyddiadurol.
|
So, the level
of capital required in order to start something where, in due
course, you’ll be able to pay journalists is very high
indeed. And that’s one of the problems, I think, in terms of
how you bring different voices into journalism.
|
[51]
A gaf i ddweud un peth byr iawn?
Mae’n ddrwg gen i. Ynglŷn â’r hyperleol, beth
ydw i wedi bod yn ei weld sydd yn digwydd mewn gwlad arall, Gwlad y
Basg, yn y cyfnod diweddar, neu yn y pump i saith mlynedd diwethaf,
ydy tra bo’r byd, fel petai, yn sôn mwy a mwy am yr
hyperleol yn y cyfnod yna, beth sydd wedi digwydd i’w gwasg
nhw yn fanna ydy eu bod nhw wedi mynd o’r hyperleol fel y
buasem ni’n meddwl amdano fo, fel lefel isel, isel
iawn—fel lefel papurau bro, ddywedwn ni. Maen nhw wedi dod
â’r papurau bro at ei gilydd yn yr ardaloedd yna,
a’r radio lleol at ei gilydd. Hefyd, mae ganddyn nhw
draddodiad o deledu lleol ers dros 20 mlynedd, 25 mlynedd. Maen nhw
wedi dod a ‘consolidate-io’ y lefelau lleol un lefel yn
uwch, ac mae hynny wedyn wedi caniatáu iddyn nhw, yn hytrach
na bod ganddyn nhw bapur bro sy’n gwasanaethau, efallai,
7,000 o bobl neu 12,000 o bobl, neu rywbeth fel yna, symud i fyny i
ddod â chwpl ohonyn nhw at ei gilydd fel eu bod nhw’n
gwasanaethu poblogaeth o tua 70,000 o bobl, sef, yn eu hachos nhw,
dalgylch ysbyty, neu rywbeth fel yna. Ac mae hynny wedi
caniatáu iddyn nhw symud i fod yn fwy proffesiynol o ran beth
maen nhw’n ei wneud. Felly, yn hytrach na bod yn grwpiau
bychain, atomeiddiedig, mewn ffordd, o bapurau bro ac o radios
lleol, maen nhw wedi dod at ei gilydd, ac mae hynny wedyn wedi
newid y ffordd y mae eu newyddiadurwyr nhw yn gweithio. Maen
nhw’n gweithio ar draws y platforms, ond maen nhw
hefyd yn gallu, efallai, arbenigo mewn maes fel iechyd
hefyd. Felly, nid yw symud
reit i lawr i’r lefel waelod o’r hyperleol wastad yn
trend sydd yn digwydd ym mhob man.
|
May I
just make one brief comment? I do apologise. On the hyperlocal,
what I’ve been seeing happening in another country, the
Basque Country, in recent years, or over the past five to seven
years, is that, whilst the world is discussing the hyperlocal,
what’s happened to their press in the Basque Country is that
they have moved away from the hyperlocal as we would think of it,
as a very low-level—the papurau bro level, if you
like. They’ve brought the papurau bro together in
those areas, the local radio has also been brought in, and they
have a tradition of local television that has been established for
over 20 or 25 years. They have consolidated all of those local
levels at the next level up, which has meant that, rather than them
having a papur bro that serves 7,000 people, or 12,000
people, they have been able to move that to another level in
bringing these together, serving a population of some 70,000
people, which is the catchment area for a hospital, let’s
say. And that’s allowed them to move to being more
professional in their activities. Therefore, rather than being very
small, atomised groups of papurau bro and local radio
stations, they’ve consolidated, and that’s changed the
way in which their journalists work. They work across those
platforms, but they can also specialise in an area such as health.
So, moving right down to that base level of the hyperlocal
isn’t always going to be a trend that’ll happen
everywhere.
|
[52]
Bethan Jenkins:
Unrhyw beth arall?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Anything else?
|
[53]
Dai Lloyd: Na, bendigedig.
|
Dai
Lloyd: No, excellent.
|
[54]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jeremy.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy.
|
[55]
Jeremy Miles:
Diolch. Dychmygwch wefan sydd yn
darparu sylwebaeth ar faterion cyfoes—efallai mai eich gwefan
chi yw hon—a hefyd yn darparu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol,
ac yn gwneud hynny trwy gyflogi newyddiadurwyr, ac yn cyfrannu,
felly, at y gyhoeddfa Gymreig mewn ffordd go iawn, mewn ffordd
at scale. Beth fyddai ei angen o ran adnoddau ac o ran model
busnes i alluogi i hynny ddigwydd—naill ai mewn ffordd
sy’n creu elw neu, yn ôl eich model chi, ar sail ffurf
nid er elw? Faint o swm o arian ydych chi’n trafod? Ac a oes
model busnes masnachol sy’n gallu cyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw, yn
eich barn chi?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Thank you. Imagine a website that provides commentary on
contemporary issues—perhaps this is your website—and
provides investigative journalism, and does that by employing
journalists, and contributing, therefore, to the Welsh public
sphere in a genuine manner, at scale. What would be needed in terms
of resources and a business model to enable that to
happen—either in a way that generates profit or, in terms of
your model, as a not-for-profit model? What kinds of sums of money
are you talking about? And is there a commercial business model
that can reach that point, in your opinion?
|
[56]
Dr Jones: Roeddwn i’n olygydd Golwg360 am gyfnod.
Rwy’n meddwl ei bod tipyn bach yn wahanol yn Saesneg.
Rwy’n meddwl bod mwy o sgôp i wasanaeth newyddion
sy’n derbyn arian cyhoeddus yn Saesneg. Mae gennych chi fwy o
arian drwy hysbysebion ac yn y blaen, er mwyn ategu’r arian a
fyddai’n dod i mewn yn gyhoeddus.
|
Dr
Jones: I was editor of Golwg360 for a period. I do think that
it’s slightly different in the English language. I think
there would be more scope for a news service that receives public
funds in English. You would generate income through advertisements
and so on, in order to supplement the public funds.
|
[57]
Y broblem efo Golwg360 i raddau oedd,
yn rhannol, fe wnaeth lansio yn syth ar ôl y chwalfa ariannol.
Felly, roedd arian hysbysebu cyhoeddus yn eithaf prin beth bynnag.
Ond, hefyd, ar ben hynny, yn draddodiadol, mae’r wasg Gymraeg
wedi cael trafferthion yn denu hysbysebwyr. I raddau, nid ydyn
nhw’n deall buddion hysbysebu yn Gymraeg, mewn
gwirionedd.
|
The problem
with Golwg360 to a certain extent was that, partially, it launched
immediately after the financial crash. Therefore, advertising
funding was relatively scarce in any case. But, traditionally, the
Welsh-medium press has had difficulty in attracting advertisers, to
a certain extent because they simply don’t understand that
one can benefit through advertising through the medium of
Welsh.
|
[58]
Mae’n anodd; nid wyf eisiau
gwneud rhyw fath o Diane Abbott a jest tynnu rhyw ffigur allan o
nunlle. Ond, rwy’n meddwl bod yna rhyw fath o—. Roedd
Golwg360 yn cael £200,000. Roedd hynny’n galluogi, mewn
gwirionedd, i fi a rhyw ddau newyddiadurwr arall fod wrthi ar
unrhyw adeg benodol yn ystod y dydd.
|
It’s
difficult; I don’t want to do a Diane Abbott and pluck a
figure out of the air. But I think that there’s—.
Golwg360 received £200,000. That enabled me and two other
journalists to be working at any specific time during the day.
|
[59]
Roedd hynny’n golygu hefyd bod
angen newyddiadurwyr i fod yn rhydd er mwyn dod i mewn yn gynnar
iawn yn y bore er mwyn paratoi pethau ar gyfer pryd fyddai pobl yn
troi eu cyfrifiaduron ymlaen, a hefyd bod rhywun angen bod yna yn
eithaf hwyr gyda’r nos hefyd, a hefyd bod angen aelodau o
staff mewn ar benwythnosau—dau aelod o staff ar ddydd Sadwrn
ac un ar ddydd Sul. Roedd hynny am £200,000.
|
That also meant
that we needed journalists to be free in order to come in very
early in the morning to prepare things for when people switch their
computers on, and we needed people there late at night too, in
order to have cover, and we also needed weekend cover—two
members of staff on a Saturday and one on a Sunday. That was all
for £200,000.
|
[60]
Felly, fel roeddwn i’n dweud,
nid oeddwn i’n teimlo bod yr adnoddau yna yn ddigonol er mwyn
gallu cynhyrchu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol—
|
As I said, I
didn’t think that those resources were sufficient to produce
investigative journalism—
|
[61]
Jeremy Miles:
Nid oeddech chi ddim,
neu—?
|
Jeremy
Miles: You didn’t or—?
|
[62]
Dr Jones: Nid oedden nhw ddim yn ddigonol er mwyn
cynhyrchu newyddiaduriaeth ymchwiliadol o safon uchel. Roeddem
ni’n cynhyrchu tua 30 stori y diwrnod rhwng dau neu dri
ohonom ni. Felly, fel rydych chi’n gallu dychmygu, roeddem
ni’n gorfod mynd drwyddyn nhw yn eithaf cyflym—ffonau
wrth y ddau glust, mewn ffordd.
|
Dr
Jones: No, I didn’t think that was sufficient to provide
high-quality investigative journalism. We produced some 30 stories
a day between two or three people. So, as you can imagine, we had
to get through that quite quickly, and you had a phone to each ear,
very often.
|
[63]
Beth rwyf wedi bod yn ei wneud dros y
flwyddyn ddiwethaf yw mynd o gwmpas yn cyfweld newyddiadurwyr o BBC
Cymru Fyw, Golwg360, Barn ac O’r Pedwar Gwynt,
a’r neges rwyf wedi’i chael gan bob un ohonyn nhw ydy:
‘Rydym yn cyfrannu rhywbeth at y sffêr gyhoeddus
Gymreig, ond nid ydym ni’n gallu gwneud newyddiaduriaeth
ymchwiliadol’—yn enwedig gyda’r gofynion cynyddol
erbyn hyn am gynnwys aml-gyfrwng hefyd; mae mwy a mwy o bobl yn
disgwyl cael fideos a chlipiau sain, ac yn y blaen.
|
What I’ve
been doing over the past year is that I’ve been interviewing
journalists from BBC Cymru Fyw, Golwg360, Barn and
O’r Pedwar Gwynt, and the message that I’ve
heard from each and every one of them is: ‘We do contribute
something to the public sphere in Wales, but we can’t carry
out investigative journalism’—particularly with the
increasing demands for multimedia content; more and more people
expect to see videos and audio clips, and so on and so forth.
|
[64]
Mae pethau’n amlwg yn mynd i
fod yn rhatach yn yr oes ddigidol nag y bydden nhw wedi bod, er
enghraifft, yn trio sefydlu rhywbeth fel Y Byd, lle mae lot
o gost. Y rheswm nad ydym wedi cael gwasanaeth newyddion yn Saesneg
yng Nghymru drwy ei hoes ydy oherwydd bod Cymru yn wlad fynyddig
iawn gyda chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth anodd iawn rhwng y de
a’r gogledd. Felly, fe fyddai’n anodd cael y papur
allan i Gymru, a hefyd y ffaith fod poblogaeth Cymru yn weddol o
fach—ac oherwydd ei bod yn wlad weddol dlawd sydd ddim yn
apelio lot at hysbysebwyr, o’i chymharu efo llefydd fel
Llundain, er enghraifft.
|
It’s
clear that things are cheaper in the digital age than they would
have been, for example, in establishing a newspaper such as Y
Byd, where there are a lot of costs. The reason why we
haven’t had an English language news service in Wales is that
Wales has very difficult geographical issues in terms of links
between north and south. It would be very difficult to distribute a
national newspaper—and also the fact that the population of
Wales is relatively small, and that it’s a relatively poor
nation, which doesn’t really appeal to advertisers in
comparison to somewhere like London, for example.
|
[65]
Ond, rwy’n meddwl, oherwydd yr
oes ddigidol, efallai bod lot o’r problemau o ran dosbarthu
wedi cael eu lleddfu, i raddau helaeth. Felly, nid wyf yn meddwl y
byddai’r gost o lansio rhywbeth mor uchel ag y byddai wedi
bod i rywbeth fel Y Byd, er enghraifft. Ond, os ydych eisiau
gwneud rhywbeth yn Saesneg, yn amlwg, byddai scale y peth yn
llawer mwy. Tua faint o gopïau oeddech chi’n meddwl
argraffu o Y Byd?
|
But, I do think
that, in the digital age, many of those distribution problems have
been mitigated to a great extent. I don’t think the cost of
launching something would be as high as it would have been for Y
Byd, for example. But, if you wanted to do it in English, the
scale would be far greater, of course. Around how many copies would
you have expected to print of Y Byd?
|
[66]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Roeddem
ni’n sôn am o gwmpas 20,000. Dyna beth roeddem
ni’n meddwl. Hefyd, roeddem ni’n sôn am drosiant o
gwmpas £1 miliwn. Wrth
gwrs, mae hyn yn sbel yn ôl, onid yw? Mae hysbysebion sector
cyhoeddus yn rhan allweddol o fodel busnes ar gyfer rhywbeth fel
hyn, achos bod yr hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus wedyn yn cynnig llif
o refeniw sy’n dod i mewn.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: We were talking around 20,000. That’s
what we thought. We also talked about a turnover of around £1
million. Of course, this is a long time ago, isn’t it? And
public sector advertisements would be a key component of the
business model for something like this, because those public sector
advertisements would then provide a revenue stream.
|
[67]
Jeremy Miles:
Ar y testun yma, rydym ni wedi cael
tystiolaeth y dylai hysbysebion cyhoeddus fod ar gael i
newyddiaduraeth hyperleol a phob math o bethau, a hefyd defnyddio
ffynhonnell arian cychwynnol—rhyw fath o start-up
fund—lle byddai pobl yn gallu cystadlu am yr arian.
Rŷm ni wedi cael tystiolaeth hefyd am gynlluniau lleddfu
trethi ac ati ar gyfer y mathau yma o wefannau neu fusnesau. A
ydych chi’n credu bod y syniadau yna yn syniadau diddorol a
ddylai gael eu hystyried?
|
Jeremy
Miles: On that matter, we’ve received evidence that those
public notices should be available to hyperlocal publishers and
other sources, and that they should also use start–up funds
where people could compete for that funding. We have also received
evidence about tax relief schemes and so on for these kinds of
websites or businesses. Do you think that those ideas are
interesting ideas that should be followed up?
|
[68]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Yn sicr,
achos rydw i’n meddwl eu bod nhw yn gostwng yr entry
level. Maen nhw’n gwneud y cae chwarae yn fwy cyson, yn
fwy teg ac yn y blaen. Ac mae’r newyddiaduraeth ddigidol yn
bwysig iawn, iawn, wrth gwrs, ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yn
rhaid inni hefyd drio cadw golwg ar ba mor anweledig mae’r
byd digidol yn gallu bod, nid yn unig i rannau o’r boblogaeth
sydd ddim yn byw ar eu ffonau, ond hefyd, pan rydym ni’n byw
ar ein ffôn rydym ni’n mynd i mewn i’r the
daily me, onid ydym? Ac rydym ni’n byw yn y siambr eco ac
yn y blaen. Ond pan rydym ni’n mynd i’r stryd, a phan
rydym ni’n mynd i’r siop, rydym ni’n gweld beth
sydd ar gael, ac rydym ni i gyd yn gweld yr un peth â’n
gilydd, i bob pwrpas. Felly, mae peidio â chuddio yr
amrywiaeth hefyd yn bwysig; o fuddsoddi i drio creu amrywiaeth, mae
peidio â chuddio’r amrywiaeth yn rhan bwysig o hynny,
rydw i’n meddwl.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Certainly, because they do lower the entry
level. They make the playing field much more equal and fair and so
on. And digital journalism is very important, of course, but I also
think we have to try to keep an eye on how invisible the digital
world can be, not just to parts of the population who don’t
live on their phones, but also when we live on our phone, we go
into the ‘daily me’, don’t we? And we live in
those echo chambers and so on. But when we go out onto the
street, and when we go to the shop, we see what is available, and
we all see the same thing as each other for all intents and
purposes. So, not hiding that variety is also important; in
investing to try and create that variety, not hiding that away is
also important, I think.
|
[69]
Dr Jones: Rwy’n meddwl bod y syniad o greu
sffêr cyhoeddus cenedlaethol yng Nghymru ynghlwm
â’r syniad o greu rhyw fath o gymuned ddychmygol
cenedlaethol. A beth mae’r ymchwil academaidd yn ei ddangos
ydy: yr un peth sy’n creu rhyw fath o ymdeimlad o undod,
bron, ymysg poblogaeth cenedl yw os ydyn nhw’n cymryd rhan yn
yr un defodau dyddiol, ac un o’r defodau yna ydy darllen yr
un papur newydd.
|
Dr
Jones: The concept of creating a public sphere in Wales is
related to the establishment of a national imagined community of
some kind in Wales. And what the academic research demonstrates is
that it creates some sort of feeling of unity among a population or
nation if they are participating in the same daily rituals, and one
of those is reading the same newspaper.
|
[70]
Jeremy Miles:
Rwy’n derbyn hynny. Nid wyf
wedi clywed oddi wrth yr un ohonoch chi eich bod chi’n
ffyddiog iawn bod model busnes a allai ddaparu’r math o
gyfrwng roeddwn i’n sôn amdano. A ydy hynny’n
ffordd deg o ddisgrifio eich tystiolaeth chi?
|
Jeremy
Miles: I’m not hearing from either of you that you have a
great deal of faith that there is a business model that can provide
the kind of media that I was talking about. Is that a fair way of
describing your evidence?
|
[71]
Dr Jones: Na, nid ydw i’n credu hynny. Rydw
i’n meddwl bod yna fodel busnes a fyddai'n gallu darparu
gwasanaeth cenedlaethol yn Saesneg, yn sicr. Rydw i’n meddwl
y byddai angen oddeutu—dywedwch eich bod chi’n gosod
ffigur o £1 miliwn y flwyddyn o arian cyhoeddus, er
enghraifft. Os ydy gwasanaeth fel Golwg360 yn gallu cael ei gynnal
ar—erbyn hyn mae’n cael tua £775,000; mae’r
ffigur wedi gostwng ers y dechrau. Rydw i’n meddwl y buasai
angen rhyw £1 miliwn y flwyddyn cyn lansio ac
wedyn—
|
Dr
Jones: I don’t think so. I think there is a business
model that could provide a national English language news service,
certainly. I think you would need to set a figure of £1
million per annum in terms of public funding. If a service such as
Golwg360 can be sustained on some £775,000—and the
figure has reduced since its establishment—I think you would
you need around £1 million per annum before launching, and
then—
|
[72]
Jeremy Miles:
Ond arian cyhoeddus rŷch
chi’n sôn amdano fan hyn, nid arian
masnachol.
|
Jeremy
Miles: But you’re talking about public funding rather
than commercial funding.
|
[73]
Dr Jones: Rydw i’n meddwl y buasai angen arian
cyhoeddus, yn sicr.
|
Dr
Jones: Yes, I think you would certainly need public funds.
|
[74]
Jeremy Miles:
Jest er mwyn cael y syniad o
scale, rŷch chi’n sôn am £1 miliwn o
arian cyhoeddus; a oes gennych chi syniad o faint o arian masnachol
y byddai’n bosibl ei ddenu i mewn i’r math yn o
gynnig?
|
Jeremy
Miles: But just to have an idea of the scale, you’re
talking about £1 million of public funding; do you have an
idea of how much commercial funding would be needed to go into that
kind of offer?
|
[75]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Nid ydw i
ddim wedi edrych ar y ffigurau yma ers cyfnod o amser, ond os ydw
i’n cofio o’r cyfnod lle roeddem ni’n
paratoi’r cynllun busnes ar gyfer papur dyddiol Cymraeg sawl
blwyddyn yn ôl, yna mi oedd yr arian cyhoeddus drwy
hysbysebion cyhoeddus yn mynd i fod yn gyfran fwy na’r hanner
o’r ffrwd incwm o hysbysebion. Byddai rhywun wedyn yn
disgwyl—dywedwn ni £1 miliwn, ac wedyn trosiant o tua
£1.5 miliwn.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: I haven’t looked at these figures for a
fair amount of time, but thinking back to the preparation of the
business plan for the Welsh language daily newspaper many years
ago, then the public funds through public notices were going to be
more than 50 per cent of the income stream from advertisements. So
one would then expect £1 million, and a turnover of £1.5
million.
|
[76]
Jeremy Miles:
Ocê, diolch i
chi.
|
Jeremy
Miles: Okay, thank you.
|
[77]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Mae gan Suzy Davies
gwestiynau.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Suzy Davies has questions.
|
[78]
Suzy Davies: Diolch. I want to ask you a little bit about funding
myself, actually. But before I do that, I wanted to just test your
statement, Dr Morgan Jones, that
|
[79]
‘there is an appetite that is not now being sated by
English-language media in Wales.’
|
[80]
Now, if you go and speak to a local
newspaper—as I’ve done—that perhaps has been
forced into making decisions that they don’t particularly
want to make in terms of their editorial content, the line that
perhaps they might have been given by further up the chain is,
‘We are publishing what people want to read’. That is
why you have ‘10 exciting restaurants to eat in in
Swansea’ and ‘The fourth worst public toilets in
Wales’ and all the rest of it—the lists and the
click-journalism side of things. What we’re not seeing, of
course, is what our local authorities are up to, just as one
example. Has this gone too far for us to recover the appetite for
local materion cyfoes, if you like? Have we reached a stage
where people have just forgotten how to read about what’s
happening in their local authorities, as one example?
|
10:15
|
[81]
Dr Jones: I don’t think that’s the case at all.
In fact, as you can see in the paper I supplied, when I did a
content analysis of Golwg360’s statistics, the vast majority
of the most popular stories during that time were stories to do
with this institution or political stories on the
periphery—local council stories. I think the reason people
were turning towards Golwg360 for that news was because that kind
of information wasn’t being supplied by the local or the
regional press. I think people are interested, and perhaps
increasingly so. For instance, at the election just past we saw a
big increase in the number of young people who voted, which
suggests that when people do come across media—increasingly
through Facebook, for instance—that does get to grips with
some of these political issues that are affecting their lives, then
there is a great interest, I think, in that media.
|
[82]
I think there is a danger that—. The problem with clickbait,
in a way, is that it’s specifically designed in order to just
get people to click on the story in the first place, and it
doesn’t actually matter whether that content actually engages
them afterwards. I think Facebook have now changed the algorithm so
that the amount of time people actually spend reading the story
influences how high those search results appear on the website, and
I think that’s a very positive change, because I don’t
know about other people in this room, but I don’t know how
many times I’ve clicked on a story on Twitter or Facebook and
just realised almost as the website loads that it’s just
complete rubbish and I’m going to have to click through about
50 different pages with an advert on each one. So, I would say
there is always going to be more interest in popular content than
there is in the sort of deep political content that’s harder
work to read, but I fear that the press, in searching for a
commercial online media, perhaps have gone too far in one
direction, and perhaps have left their public service ethos behind
to a certain extent. Even though more people may click on ‘10
funny images of cats’ than they click on what’s going
to—
|
[83]
Suzy Davies: That’s me. I do that.
|
[84]
Dr Jones: I think it’s also a question of the Assembly
being successful in packaging news about politics and councils
being successful in packaging news about politics. Because even if
you look at Westminster, Westminster is all over the front pages
and everybody reads these stories, but a lot of it is quite
‘soap opera-y’, in a way, and not a lot of it does get
to grips with the sort of nitty-gritty of what’s going on in
the Brexit committee in the House of Commons, for instance, where a
lot of what we think might be political interest is actually,
‘Oh, I’ve been following this soap opera for a while, I
wonder what’s going to happen to Theresa May now’ kind
of thing, rather than a real interest in the policy differences
between people. So, I think the political stuff gets through almost
by osmosis, by packaging the news in a way that is interesting to
people, and that takes time and effort on the part of the
journalist. As I said, they’re very dependent on press
releases. If they get a press release from the Assembly saying
‘Ifan Morgan Jones and Elin Haf Gruffydd-Jones have been
giving evidence today, this is what they said’ and it seems
quite dry, they’re not then going to have the time to go
through that press release and repackage it as a sexy piece of news
in a way that—
|
[85]
Suzy Davies: ‘Ifan Morgan Jones’s top 10
words—click here.’
|
[86]
Dr Jones: Maybe we need to do a little bit more of that. But
I think that perhaps the Assembly has a role in thinking of ways
that they can make their news accessible not just perhaps to the
five per cent who are political anoraks, but perhaps the wider
community beyond that, and ask journalists what kind of content
they do want, as well, because perhaps if you did package it as a
sort of top 10 or a listicle or something like that or in a way
that is more ‘soap opera-y’—you know, what the
Assembly Members are up to and so forth—then more people
would read it.
|
[87]
Suzy Davies: Watching pictures of cats—that’s all we
do here.
|
[88]
Dr Jones: So, you have to
be—[Inaudible.]
|
[89]
Bethan Jenkins: Let’s not go there this morning.
We’re not jumping though fields of wheat anyway,
so—.
|
[90]
Suzy Davies: That’s way too dangerous
|
[91]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: Ond,
efallai, os ydy rhywun yn cymryd y model opera sebon, a ydy pobol
yn gwybod pwy yw’r cymeriadau, ynte? Rydw i’n siŵr
bod—. Mae yna rai ohonoch chi sy’n fwy enwog
na’ch gilydd, nid ydw i’n dweud, ond, er mwyn cymryd
approach opera sebon i wleidyddiaeth Gymreig, mae’n
rhaid cael y cymeriadau allan yna, ac nid yw’r cymeriadau yna
ddim yno ar hyn o bryd, nac ydyn? Ac mae’n fy rhyfeddu i, pan
fyddaf i hyd yn oed yn clywed pobl rydw i’n siarad efo nhw
sydd ddim yn gwybod enw Carwyn, ynte—Carwyn Jones. Mae
hynny’n fy rhyfeddu i, ac mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl pam
bod hynny’n wir, ynte.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: But, perhaps, if somebody takes the soap opera
model as an example, do people know who the characters are?
I’m sure that—. Some of you are more famous than
others, but, to take that soap opera approach to Welsh politics,
you do have to get the characters out there, and the characters
aren’t there at present, are they? And it stuns me when I
talk to people who don’t know Carwyn Jones’s name.
That’s a huge surprise to me, and we do have to think about
why that’s true.
|
[92]
Suzy Davies: Wel, nid oes sgetsh
gwleidyddol yng Nghymru, nac oes?
|
Suzy Davies: Well, we don’t have a political sketch in
Wales, do we?
|
[93]
Bethan Jenkins:
Spitting Image Cymraeg.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: A Welsh Spitting Image.
|
[94]
Yr Athro Gruffydd-Jones: A
rôl newyddiadurwyr ydy gwneud y cynnwyd yn fwy diddorol, ynte:
troi hyn yn rhywbeth hyd yn oed yn fwy diddorol na beth ydy o. Ond
dyna yw rôl newyddiadurwr—nid ailadrodd beth sydd wedi
digwydd neu jest ei fyrhau o, ond rhoi steer arno fo, a rhoi
arwyddocâd pellach iddo fo, a’i wneud o’n
ddiddorol, ynte.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: And the role of journalists is to make the
content more interesting: to turn this into something that’s
even more interesting than it already is. But that’s the role
of journalism—it’s not just repeating what’s
happened or summarising it, but giving it a steer, and also giving
it further significance and making it interesting.
|
[95]
Dr Jones: Os rhoddaf i
esiampl, er enghraifft, os buaswn i’n cael datganiad gan y
Cynulliad yn dweud bod yna Ddeddf rhoi organau newydd wedi dod i
mewn, pe buaswn i jest yn sticio hynny yn y papur, ni fyddai lot o
ddiddordeb ynddo fe. Er ei fod o’n Ddeddf ofnadwy o bwysig,
yn effeithio bywydau lot o bobl, ni fyddai lot o ddiddordeb ynddo
fo. Pe buaswn i fel newyddiadurwr efo’r amser i ffeindio
rhywun sydd yn fyw heddiw oherwydd y Ddeddf yna, ac yn mynd atyn
nhw ac yn ei cyfweld nhw, mi fyddai pobl wedyn yn darllen stori am
Joe Jones lawr yr heol sydd yn byw heddiw oherwydd ei fod o wedi
cael organ trwy'r Ddeddf rhoi organau, ac, mewn ffordd,
buasai’r stwff gwleidyddol, wedyn, yn dod trwodd yn y stori
yna, rhwng yr human interest story, mewn ffordd. Felly,
mae’n ffordd o sut rydych chi’n pecynnu straeon, ac nid
oes gan newyddiadurwr, yn gynyddol, yng Nghymru, yr amser i
ailbecynnu datganiadau fel straeon diddordeb dynol diddorol. Felly,
efallai bod yna rôl i’r Cynulliad i wneud y math yna o
beth drostyn nhw, os ydy’r adnoddau yna, felly.
|
Dr Jones: As an example, if we
received a press release saying that the organ donation Bill had
come in, and we just put in the paper, there wouldn’t be a
great deal of interest in it, even though it’s a very
important law and it would affect a great many people. As
journalists, if we had the time to find someone who is alive today
because of that law, and if we went to them and interviewed them,
then people would read a story about Joe Jones down the road
who’s alive today because he had received an organ through
the organ donation Act, and the political issues would come through
in that story, through the human interest story. So, it’s
about how you package stories, and journalists, increasingly, in
Wales don’t have the time to repackage press releases as
human interest stories. So, perhaps there’s a role for the
Assembly to do that kind of thing for them, if the resources are
there.
|
[96]
Bethan Jenkins: Suzy.
|
[97]
Suzy Davies: Well, actually, this is a question that the
Commission itself is considering at the moment. I just wanted to
ask you something about—. If start-ups were to be publicly
funded, what should be the criteria for funding those start-ups? I
would ask you for how it would be distributed, but, you know, you
mentioned in what you were saying earlier on about the success of
The Canary and similar online things. That certainly helped
stir interest in politics, but, of course, it’s just
repeating, effectively, what’s happening in the Daily
Express and the Daily Mirror, as much as it’s
reinforcing particular political standpoints rather than
encouraging open thinking, if you like. If public money were to go
into start-ups, should there be minimum criteria about journalistic
standards and political neutrality? And that’s whether
they’re essentially voluntary organisations or
not.
|
[98]
Dr Jones: I think that, to a certain extent, those standards
would come as a direct result of actually receiving money. The
second you’re a professional journalist, you perhaps do have
higher standards than, as I said, if you’re just doing
something voluntary. For instance, if you think about Golwg 360, I
was the editor of Golwg 360; we did receive £200,000 a year
from the Welsh Books Council, through the Welsh Government. I do
have political views, but I did keep all the content on Golwg 360
completely politically neutral, because I was aware
that—
|
[99]
Suzy Davies: Balanced as well.
|
[100]
Dr Jones: —I was serving the people of Wales, that I was
serving the people who were investing money in this, which were the
Welsh Government, who represent the people of Wales. So, I think
the—. For instance, if you contrast that with something like
Nation.Cymru, which I’m running now, because it’s a
voluntary site I’ve basically said, ‘Okay, anyone who
wants to contribute to Nation.Cymru, you can do so.’ But all
I’ve received are contributions by members of the Labour
Party who are on the Welsher wing of the Labour Party perhaps, and
Plaid Cymru members, because those are the kinds of people who want
to be part of the national conversation, have more
interesting—
|
[101]
Suzy Davies: Expect some from the others shortly.
[Laughter.]
|
[102] Dr Jones: Yes,
hopefully. I would be very happy to receive contributions from
others as well, but it just so happens that, because of the kind of
site it is, that’s all I’ve been getting—these
kinds of people shovelling content towards me. Whereas if it
was—. And, because of the voluntary nature of it, I
haven’t had the time. It would take more effort for me to
spend many hours of commissioning articles from a broader range of
people where, when I was the editor of Golwg 360 and working full
time on the site, I was able, quite easily, to spend time making
sure that we had a broader picture, and I remember being very happy
walking around the Eisteddfod maes once when one person came
up to me and gave me a row that we were being too kind to the
Tories on Golwg 360—
|
[103] Suzy
Davies: You can never be too kind to the Tories.
[Laughter.]
|
[104] Dr Jones:
And then another person came up to me and gave me a row for being
too kind towards Plaid Cymru. So, I thought, ‘Yes, I’ve
got the balance right here, on the site, because no one’s
happy’.
|
[105] Suzy
Davies: A balance, yes, because—. Can I just ask you a
quick one there? Presumably, you’ve got some sort of
editorial controls if something is offered to you that crosses the
offensiveness line—you can either refuse to take it or take
pieces out of it, yes?
|
[106] Dr Jones:
Yes. Yes, simply, I do that, you know—
|
[107] Suzy
Davies: I don’t mean a political viewpoint—
|
[108] Bethan
Jenkins: You’re anticipating an article about
somebody—[Inaudible.]
|
[109] Suzy
Davies: What words have I got to leave out? [Laughter.]
But you can see where I’m coming from—you know, the
tone, particularly on social media in this last election, was
beyond acceptable in some cases, so I guess you do have some
editorial control about choosing what goes on your site. I mean,
I’m not saying this happened on yours at all, but—you
know where I’m coming from. At what point would a
state-funded, effectively, or state-supported, published website
or, actually, print media reach a situation where the state could
then say, ‘I’m sorry, we’re pulling the money on
this—you’ve gone too far’?
|
[110] Dr Jones:
I think, certainly, as an editor, you have to look out, obviously,
for things like libel and contempt of court to begin with, which
don’t apply so much on Twitter, where everyone just says what
they want. You also—
|
[111] Suzy
Davies: You mentioned that everybody knows the rules on that
either. So, I’m guessing insurance is an issue for you.
|
[112] Dr Jones:
I think, as an editor, you would just to take—you’d
just have to know your stuff, really, and make sure that no content
like that—. Obviously, if any kind of content does cross the
line and becomes abusive, you either just have to spike the
article, or you have to get back in contact with the person and
say, ‘You know, this isn’t acceptable at all. I’d
have to cut this bit out. Are you happy for me to cut it out? If
not, you know, the article gets spiked.’
|
[113] Suzy
Davies: I appreciate that’s putting you on the spot, but
as a general idea. Thank you. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
|
[114] Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch.
|
[115]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: A gaf i
ychwanegu un neu ddau o bethau rydw i’n eu meddwl ynglŷn
â hyn?
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: May I add one or two things to that?
|
[116]
Bethan Jenkins:
O, ie—sori, nid oes lot o
amser.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Oh, yes—sorry, there isn’t much time.
|
[117]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Popeth yn
iawn. Rydw i’n deall; byddaf yn fast iawn. Rydw
i’n meddwl, o ran gosod gofynion efo arian cyhoeddus, os
mai’r bwriad ydy cryfhau amrywiaeth yr wasg, yna mae’n
rhaid cael—nid yw’n gorfod bod erthygl wrth erthygl,
bod popeth yn gorfod bod yn gytbwys, ond ei fod o, yn fras, yn
gytbwys. Rydw i’n meddwl bod hynny’n draddodiad sydd
wedi cael ei etifeddu o’r system ddarlledu. Rydw i’n
meddwl byddai fo’n bwysig hefyd i feddwl ynglŷn â
sut i ddod â phobl ifanc i mewn i’r proffesiwn
newyddiadurol, beth bynnag ydy ffurf y proffesiwn newyddiadurol yna
yn y dyfodol. Rydw i’n meddwl byddai fo’n bwysig bod
yna elfennau sy’n cyfateb i’r uchelgais o greu miliwn o
siaradwyr Cymraeg o fewn y degawdau nesaf yma. Felly, hyd yn oed os
ydy rhywun yn sôn ynglŷn â bod yna ddiffygion yn y
wasg Saesneg yng Nghymru, nid oes dim byd o’i le chwaith efo
cryfhau’r elfennau yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Rydym ni’n
gwybod mewn gwledydd eraill, fel Catalonia, Gwlad y Basg, ac yn y
blaen, bod nifer darllenwyr ifanc yn cynyddu yn fanna, felly, pe
byddai mwy o gynnwys ar gael byddai’n helpu fanna. Ac rydw
i’n meddwl ei bod yn bwysig cael dosbarthiad daearyddol
pwysig, yntê, i hyn. Rydw i’n dweud hyn, wrth gwrs, fel
rhywun sydd yn byw yn y gorllewin, ond hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn o
sut brofiad byddai tyfu i fyny yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru y
dyddiau yma, ac yn meddwl, ‘Reit, lle mae’r rôl i
newyddiaduraeth sydd yn edrych ar bob rhan o Gymru mewn model fel
hyn?’ Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod cael gwasgariad
daearyddol hefyd yn bwysig iawn.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: That’s fine. I understand; I’ll be
very fast. I think, in terms of setting requirements with public
funding, if the intention is to strengthen the diversity of the
press, then you have to have—it doesn’t have to be an
article-by-article method of ensuring impartiality and balance, but
it generally needs to be balanced. I think that that’s a
tradition that’s been inherited from the broadcasting system.
I think it’s also important to think about how to bring young
people into the profession of journalism, whatever the form of that
journalistic profession is in future. I think that it’s
important that there are elements that correspond to the ambition
of creating a million Welsh speakers within the next few decades.
So, even if someone’s talking about the deficiency in the
English-language press, there’s nothing wrong either with
strengthening the elements in the Welsh language. We know that in
other countries, such as Catalonia and the Basque Country, the
number of young people and young readers is increasing there, so
more content being available would be a help there. And I also
think it’s important to have an important geographical
distribution. I say this, of course, as someone who lives in the
west, but also very aware of the experience of growing up in the
north-east of Wales these days, and thinking, ‘Well,
what’s the role for journalism that looks at all parts of
Wales in a model like this?’ So, I think that having that
geographical spread is also very important.
|
[118]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jest cwestiynau gan Neil Hamilton
nawr.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Some questions now from Neil Hamilton.
|
[119] Neil
Hamilton: Yes. Well, we live in a more visual age now than the
one in which I was growing up, and the attention span of the public
has dramatically declined, I think, in my lifetime. It’s very
interesting to look back at the content of newspapers going back
many years. I spent quite a long time in the vaults of the national
library reading nineteenth century local newspapers and you’d
be amazed at the depth of argument and coverage of serious
issues—something like The Montgomeryshire Express back
in the 1860s—compared with today, where even the Western
Mail or Wales Online are only interested in trivialities and
there’s no serious content at all. I’ve done my best to
liven things up since I’ve been here, but—
|
[120] Dai
Lloyd: To bring a serious note—[Laughter.]
|
10:30
|
[121] Neil
Hamilton: Everybody complains that the Senedd isn’t
reported, and when I do my best to ensure that it is reported then
I get ticked off by the Llywydd for using too colourful a phrase or
an image because it’s politically incorrect, or thought to be
politically incorrect, and, actually, that is the only thing that
our news media in Wales is interested in reporting on. It’s
pathetic, actually, when you consider we’ve just been through
an election to discuss the most serious issues of our age. All the
Mickey Mouse kind of reporting that we get is just as true for
national newspapers as it is for local newspapers, as you rightly
said. The reportage of Westminster is all tittle-tattle of one kind
or another. Parliamentary debates are not reported at all except
sometimes for the main speakers, and the only thing that anybody
knows about the House of Commons is Prime Minister’s question
time, which is a complete pantomime and worthless as a means of
exchanging ideas. I think First Minister’s questions is a bit
better than that here, actually, in my experience, but that
doesn’t get reported either. There’s nothing we can do
about that, of course, but what strikes me is how much more lively,
in a way, Welsh language publications are in Wales than the English
language ones. I think that there’s a significant difference
between the two. Small as they are, nevertheless I think that the
standards are much higher than the commercial ones, if I can put it
that way, like the Trinity Mirror group and so on.
|
[122] What I’ve
seen in my lifetime in Wales is a dramatic reduction in the
diversity of and independence of news outlets, and I’m very
concerned that we should try to do something to revive more of the
plurality that existed 40 years ago, or 50 years ago. I’ve
been a journalist myself and I do understand the problems today,
with the collapse of advertising revenues. I worked as a columnist
on the Sunday Express for many years. Now, I guess, across
the two titles—the Daily Express and the Sunday
Express—I doubt that there are 70 or 80 full-time
professional journalists between two national newspapers, and that
is replicated to a much more severe extent with our local news
media, obviously. So, we’re living in an age of transition.
Most of the print titles will have disappeared, I think, within a
very short time, and we’re moving to more digital content.
So, websites are going to become much more important. Still,
there’s going to be a significant difficulty in finding
finance for these outlets to produce the level of reporting, and
particularly investigative reporting, that a healthy political
society requires. There are obvious dangers in state
finance—
|
[123] Bethan
Jenkins: Can I be Presiding Officer and ask if you’re
going to come to a question? [Laughter.]
|
[124] Neil
Hamilton: Yes. I will do.
|
[125] Bethan
Jenkins: As much as I’m loving listening to you.
[Laughter.]
|
[126] Neil
Hamilton: Exactly.
|
[127] Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you.
|
[128] Neil
Hamilton: You’ve anticipated my next move.
|
[129] Bethan
Jenkins: Great. I’m liking that.
|
[130] Neil
Hamilton: I was obviously receiving the signals
telepathically.
|
[131] Bethan
Jenkins: Yes. [Laughter.]
|
[132] Neil
Hamilton: But it has worked, I think, with Welsh language
publishing. So, I was wondering whether you think that additional
state support should be provided for traditional news journalism,
particularly English language journalism, which you referred to,
and, if so, what this might look like. Do you think that’s a
realistic possibility?
|
[133] Dr Jones:
My PhD is in the nineteenth century Welsh press, so I concur about
the quality of the debate that was in the press at that time. But
the thing to remember, of course, was that, as soon as the News
of the World and London papers came in, the Welsh press was
just annihilated, to all intents and purposes. So, you could argue
that the only reason people were reading the Monmouthshire
Merlin was because there was nothing better and more
interesting around to read at the time. But I would just make the
case that public funding has worked very well through the Welsh
language. There were no issues when I was at Golwg360 with any kind
of bias within the website, and I don’t think there are any
more. I don’t think there was any sort of feeling of undue
pressure either by the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly or
any other political organisation to write in any way, favourably or
unfavourably. The only concern I do have with public funding is
that the one effect it has had on Welsh language press, in my
opinion, is that the press doesn’t make enough effort to be
popular—in my opinion. I think, perhaps, it sometimes has
turned into a press by middle-class Welsh speakers for middle-class
Welsh speakers to a certain extent because, as a middle-class
Welsh-speaking person writing novels and writing journalism, those
are my peers, really, and I’m trying to please my peers. And
because there’s no financial incentive to appeal to a wider
audience, perhaps that is one negative effect of receiving public
money. But I think if the English language press received a public
subsidy they would obviously be, to a certain extent, dependent on
that public subsidy, and also on a certain amount of income
generated through other revenues such as advertisers. So, I think
on the seesaw between being a more popular press and perhaps a more
substantial press, perhaps they get the balance slightly better
than the Welsh language press has over the years.
|
[134]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Byddwn
i’n dweud yn gyflym iawn, y peth olaf byddwn ni’n
disgwyl i chi fod yn gweithio tuag ato fo ydy ffordd o roi arian
cyhoeddus i gynnal y math o wasg sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd,
hynny ydy model o jest parhad i roi, yn lle bod—. Fe ddywedwn
ni, yn glir iawn—yn lle bod Trinity Mirror yn parhau
â’i fodel busnes drwy gael hysbysebion sector cyhoeddus,
eu bod nhw’n symud draw i fod yn rhyw fath o grant sector
cyhoeddus, a byddwn i’n meddwl eich bod chi—os dyna
ydy’r uchelgais, rydw i wir yn meddwl eich bod chi’n
colli golwg ar beth ydy’r cyfle sy’n gallu codi os
ydych chi’n meddwl o ddifri ynglŷn â gwneud
adjustment i’r market failure sydd yn amlwg yn
bodoli yn y wasg yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru, o ran beth mae pobl yn
darllen a beth mae pobl yn gweld. Os ydych chi eisiau cael gwasg
sydd yn fwy egnïol ac yn fwy amrywiol yn y ddwy iaith, yna
mae’n rhaid gwneud adjustments i fethiant y farchnad,
a’r ffordd mae’r adjustment yna yn cael ei wneud
ydy efallai cyfuniad o beth bynnag ydy’r pwerau sydd ar gael
o ran amrywio lle mae treth yn dod i mewn a lle mae buddsoddiad yn
mynd allan. Ac os nad oes gennych chi'r grym i amrywio'r mater
efo’r trethi, yna dim ond drwy amrywio buddsoddiad y mae modd
newid y farchnad yna.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: I would just say very briefly that the last
thing I would expect you to be working towards is a means of
providing public funds to sustain the kind of press that we
currently have, that is a model of continuity. So, let’s make
this clear, rather than Trinity Mirror continuing with its business
model by attracting public sector advertising, that it moves over
to be some sort of public sector grant, and I would think that if
that’s the ambition, then I really think that you are losing
sight of the opportunities that could arise if you think in earnest
about making an adjustment to the market failure, which clearly
exists in the press and media generally in Wales, in terms of what
people read and what people see. If you want a press that is more
diverse and more energetic in both languages, then you need to make
adjustments to that market failure, and the way that adjustment is
made is perhaps a combination of whatever powers are available in
terms of varying where the tax is taken and where the investment is
made. And if you don’t have the powers to vary taxation, then
it’s only through varying investment can you change that
marketplace.
|
[135]
Felly, byddwn i’n meddwl bod
yna gyfle i wneud rhywbeth cyffrous iawn yn fan hyn. Mae gennym ni
fodel lle rydym ni’n gwybod, drwy’r wasg Gymraeg a
drwy’r system darlledu gyhoeddus, fod buddsoddiad cyhoeddus
yn amrywiaeth y wasg ac yn amrywiaeth newyddiaduraeth yn gweithio
ac yn dderbyniol. Felly, un cam pellach wedyn ydy penderfynu estyn
y model yna y tu allan i ddarlledu yn Saesneg i’w roi o tuag
at gynhyrchu newyddion gwahanol yn Saesneg. Ond ni fyddwn i’n
dweud chwaith nad ydy’r newyddiaduraeth Gymraeg yn gwbl iach
chwaith, ac mae wir yn bwysig trio sicrhau bod y wasg yn cyrraedd
mwy o siaradwyr a mwy o bobl sydd yn y broses o ddysgu’r
iaith, beth bynnag ydy eu hoed.
|
So, I
think there is an opportunity to do something very exciting here.
We do have a model where we know through, the Welsh media and the
public service broadcasting system, that public investment in the
plurality of the press and the plurality of journalism does work
and is acceptable. So, it’s one step further then, of course,
to decide to extend that model beyond English language
broadcasting, and to make provision for the production of news in a
different way in English. But I wouldn’t say either that the
Welsh language journalism is entirely healthy either, and
it’s very important that we do try to ensure that the press
and media does reach more Welsh speakers and more Welsh learners,
whatever their age.
|
[136] Neil
Hamilton: And you referred to the Basque Country. Do you know
any other examples internationally that we might explore to take us
further along this road?
|
[137]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Wel, un
achos diddorol iawn, efallai, hefyd ydy’r Ffindir, lle mae
Swedeg hefyd yn iaith swyddogol yna, ac mae patrymau newyddiadurol
cryf iawn yn y fan yna. Mae’r model o danysgrifio i bapur
newydd yn gryf iawn yn yr ardal yna, ac mae hynny wedyn, wrth gwrs,
yn caniatáu i’r papurau symud o’r fersiwn print
i’r fersiwn digidol gymaint yn rhwyddach oherwydd bod y
darllenwyr yn barod wedi comitio neu ymrwymo i’r
cynnwys—dim ots ym mha ffurf y mae’n eu cyrraedd nhw,
maent wedi comitio i’r cynnwys. Felly, efallai ei bod
hi’n wrth i chi ystyried beth sy’n digwydd yn fanna, ac
fe fedra i ddarparu rhywfaint o wybodaeth cefndir i chi ynglŷn
â’r ddau achos penodol yna, os ydych chi’n
dymuno.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Well, one interesting case, perhaps, as well is
Finland, where Swedish is also an official language, and there are
very strong journalistic trends and patterns there. The
subscription model for newspapers is very strong there, and that
then allows those papers to move from the print version to the
digital version far more easily because the readership is already
committed to the content—whatever form it takes, they are
committed to it. So, perhaps you should consider what is happening
there, and I could provide some background information to you on
those two specific cases, if you wish.
|
[138]
Bethan Jenkins:
Grêt. Byddai unrhyw wybodaeth
ychwanegol felly yn help. Rydym ni wedi mynd dros amser yn barod,
felly os yw’n iawn gyda chi, fe wnawn ni ysgrifennu atoch chi
am rai o’r cwestiynau ychwanegol, er enghraifft y gwaith
mae’r BBC yn ei wneud ar newyddiaduraeth leol, a rhai
cwestiynau penodol am y cyngor llyfrau. Felly, a yw’n iawn i
ni ysgrifennu atoch chi?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Great. Any additional information would be of great
help. We have gone over time already, so if it’s okay with
you, we’ll write to you with additional questions, for
example the work that the BBC is doing with local journalism, and
some specific questions about the books council. So, is it okay for
us to write to you?
|
[139]
Dr Jones: Ydy.
|
Dr Jones: Yes.
|
[140]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Wrth
gwrs.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Of course.
|
[141]
Bethan Jenkins:
Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi
am ddod mewn; sesiwn ddiddorol iawn. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd
rhywun rhywle yn gwneud stori am yr hyn rydych wedi ei ddweud, os
yn secsi neu beidio. Ewch i reportio fe eich hunain.
[Chwerthin.] Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod mewn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Great. Thank you very much to you for coming in for
this very interesting session. I hope that somebody somewhere will
write a story on what you’ve said, whether it’s sexy or
not. Do go out and report it yourselves. [Laughter.] Thank
you very much to you for coming in.
|
[142]
Dr Jones: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.
|
Dr
Jones: Thank you very much.
|
[143]
Yr Athro
Gruffydd-Jones: Diolch.
|
Professor
Gruffydd-Jones: Thank you.
|
10:40
|
|
Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note
|
[144]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rydym yn symud ymlaen at eitem 3,
a’r papurau i’w nodi. Mae yna gryn dipyn o bapurau
i’w nodi. Mae yna un ar gyllid ar gyfer addysg cerddoriaeth a
mynediad at yr addysg honno: crynodeb o’r ymweliad gwych a
gawsom i Ysgol Lewis Pengam, ynglŷn â’u gwaith nhw;
papur ar ddyfodol S4C a thystiolaeth ychwanegol gan Huw Jones,
cadeirydd Awdurdod S4C, ac Ian Jones, y prif weithredwr; wedyn,
papur arall ar newyddiaduraeth newyddion yng Nghymru, a
thystiolaeth ychwanegol ddwys iawn, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud,
gan Enders Analysis; papur arall ychwanegol gan Dr Andy Williams ac
Emma Meese; ac wedyn papur gan y Pwyllgor Deisebau ynglŷn
â’r deisebau sydd yn ymwneud â’n pwyllgor ni
o ran thema. A ydy pawb yn hapus i nodi hynny?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We move on to item 3 and the papers to note. There are
several papers to note. There is one on funding for and access to
music education: a summary of the excellent visit that we had to
Lewis School Pengam, with regard to their work; a paper on the
future of S4C and additional evidence from Huw Jones, chairman of
the S4C Authority, and Ian Jones, chief executive of S4C; then
another paper on news journalism in Wales, and additional written
evidence—a great deal of evidence—from Enders Analysis;
and also a paper from Dr Andy Williams and Emma Meese; and then a
paper from the Petitions Committee with regard to the petitions
that are relevant to our committee. Is everyone content to note
those?
|
[145]
Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Content.
|
[146]
Bethan Jenkins:
Unrhyw sylwadau? Mae gen i nodyn i
ofyn a oes unrhyw sylwadau penodol gennych chi ar y deisebau? Na.
Dim ar hyn o bryd. Grêt.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Any comments? I have a note to ask whether there any
specific comments on the petitions? No. Not at the moment.
Great.
|
10:41
|
|
Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i
Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Meeting
|
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
|
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y
cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
|
that the committee resolves
to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
|
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
|
|
[147]
Bethan Jenkins:
Eitem 4: cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog
17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus
gyda hynny?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Item 4 is a
motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public
from the meeting. Is everyone content?
|
|
[148]
Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Content.
|
|
[149]
Bethan Jenkins:
Bodlon. Diolch yn fawr,
Dai.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Content. Thank you very much, Dai.
|
|
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
10:41. The public part of the meeting ended at
10:41.
|
|
|
|
|
|