Dragon Logo - National Assembly for Wales | Logo Ddraig y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

15/02/2017

 

 

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

 

 

 

 

Cynnwys
Contents

 

.........

4....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

 

5....... Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 7
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 7

 

32..... Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 8
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 8

 

52..... Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

53..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

 

 

 

 

                                                                

 

 

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

 

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance

 

Hannah Blythyn
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Suzy Davies
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Neil Hamilton
Bywgraffiad|Biography

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

Bethan Jenkins
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)

Dai Lloyd
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Jeremy Miles
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Lee Waters
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

 

Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance

 

Emma Archer

Cadeirydd Cymdeithas Addysg Gerdd Awdurdodau Cymru (CAGAC)

Chair of the Welsh Authorities' Music Education Association (CAGAC)

Peter Bellingham

Cyfarwyddwr Pontio Ymgynghorol, Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru (CCIC)

Consultant Transition Director, National Youth Arts Wales (NYAW)

Aled Evans

Cyfarwyddwr Addysg, Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot 

Director of Education, Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council

Awen Fflur Jones

Cyd-gadeirydd, Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru

Co-chair, National Youth Arts Wales

Chris Llewelyn

Cyfarwyddwr Dysgu Gydol Oes, Hamdden a Gwybodaeth, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru

Director of Lifelong Learning, Leisure and Information, Welsh Local Government Association

 

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance

 

Steve George

Clerc

Clerk

Alys Thomas

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

Adam Vaughan

Dirprwy Glerc

Deputy Clerk

Robin Wilkinson

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

 

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:03.
The meeting began at 09:03.

 

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1]          Bethan Jenkins: Awn i ymlaen i’r cyfarfod ffurfiol nawr ac eitem 1: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff. Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0. Peidiwch â chyffwrdd y botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall hyn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch bod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. Oes unrhyw fuddiannau i’w datgan gan unrhyw un? Na. Ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon: mae Dawn Bowden a Jeremy Miles wedi dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i fod yn hwyr yma heddiw.

 

Bethan Jenkins: We’ll go into formal meeting and item 1: Introductions, apologies and substitutions. If there is a fire alarm, you should leave via relevant exits and follow the instructions of the ushers and staff. We’re not expecting a fire alarm today. Please put your mobile phones on silent. The Welsh Assembly operates bilingually, and there are headphones available to hear the simultaneous translation and for amplification. The interpretation is on channel 1, and amplification is on channel 0. Please do not touch the buttons on the microphones as this can interfere with the broadcasting system, and please make sure the red light is on before you begin to speak. Any declarations of interest from Members? No. Apologies and substitutions: Dawn Bowden and Jeremy Miles have said that they are going to be late today.

09:04

 

 

Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 7
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 7

 

[2]          Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 2: ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a mynediad ati. Diolch heddiw i Emma Archer, sef cadeirydd Cymdeithas Addysg Gerdd Awdurdodau Cymru; Chris Llewelyn, cyfarwyddwr dysgu gydol oes, hamdden a gwybodaeth, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru; ac Aled Evans, cyfarwyddwr addysg, Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Diolch ichi am ddod yma heddiw.

Bethan Jenkins: Item 2: funding for and access to music education. Thank you today to Emma Archer, chair of the Welsh Authorities Music Education Association; Chris Llewelyn, director of lifelong learning, leisure and information, Welsh Local Government Association; and Aled Evans, director of education, Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council. Thank you all for coming here today.

 

[3]          Mae’n siŵr eich bod chi wedi darllen neu weld rhai o’r trafodaethau gan y pwyllgor ar y mater yma. Yn wir, roedd Karl Napieralla yma rai wythnosau’n ôl yn siarad am ei rôl ar y grŵp gorchwyl am y pwnc yma. Efallai y gwnaethoch chi weld bod Owain Arwel Hughes wedi dod i mewn a dweud bod y sefyllfa gyda cherddoriaeth mewn addysg yn argyfyngus ar hyd Cymru. Hoffwn i wybod a ydych chi’n cytuno gyda hynny, ac a fedrwch roi rhyw fath o gyd-destun o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad yma yng Nghymru? Rydym ni wedi cael dogfennau ychwanegol neithiwr. Nid ydw i’n siŵr a yw pawb wedi cael amser i ddarllen y dogfennau hynny, ond rydw i’n siŵr y byddwn ni’n darllen y dogfennau hynny cyn i ni ddod i unrhyw fath o gasgliad lawr y lein. Felly, croeso i chi, ac os oes unrhyw atebion i hynny, byddai hynny’n grêt. Diolch.

 

I’m sure you’ll have read or maybe seen some of the discussions that the committee have already held on this issue. Indeed, Karl Napieralla was here a couple of weeks ago talking about his role on the task group on this particular topic. Maybe you saw that Owain Arwel Hughes had also been in and said that the situation in relation to music in education is in crisis in Wales at the moment. I’d like to know whether you agree with that, or whether you can give us some sort of context of what is happening at grass-roots level in Wales. We have had some additional documents last night. I’m not sure if everyone’s had time to read those, but we will certainly look at those before we come to any sort of conclusion on this matter. So, welcome to you, and if you have any initial remarks to that, that would be great. Thank you.

[4]          Dr Llewelyn: Okay, I think the position of music services remains a vulnerable one. I think, since you mentioned the Karl Napieralla’s review—we worked closely with Karl in conducting the review—I think it’s fair to say that since then the position has deteriorated in that there have been further funding cuts, and music services are vulnerable to cuts in funding for a variety of reasons. That said, there have been positive developments as well. I think that there has been significant progress in terms of the National Youth Arts Wales ensembles—the national groups. With the creation of National Youth Arts Wales, we have a transitional arrangement in place for the coming year, but I think that the arrangement that has been set up, the company that’s been formed, is an exciting development. It looks fit for purpose from our perspective and I think it makes sense to have one national body, which is at arm’s length from Government, which deals with the all the national groups and the arts ensemble.

 

[5]          The previous arrangement was a historical accident, if you like, and I think the idea of local government funding some national youth arts groups through an exams body was anachronistic, and I think it needed changing. So, I’m optimistic about the new arrangement. And then in other aspects as well, I think the development of the new curriculum, the implementation of Donaldson’s recommendations, the idea of creative learners, of going out to schools and asking them to develop the new curriculum, and maybe giving music a distinct and clear status as an academic discipline within the curriculum I think is very positive. And then the work that’s gone on in terms of the developments around the Dai Smith review, and the schools that have been involved in that in the creative learning through the arts work—I think that those developments are very positive and exciting as well. But, as I say, it’s within a context of significant further cuts in funding.

 

[6]          Bethan Jenkins: Emma or Aled?

 

 

 

[7]          Mr Evans: Os caf i ategu efallai yr hyn mae Chris wedi’i ddweud, mae yna heriau yn ein hwynebu ni, nid oes  amheuaeth am hynny o gwbl, ac mae’r heriau hynny’n rhai sy’n ymwneud yn bennaf â chyllid a sut rŷm ni’n sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau wedi cael eu cyllido yn ddigonol ac yn addas. I ryw raddau hefyd, mae’n rhaid i ni edrych ar yr ystod o ddarpariaeth sydd yn digwydd. Mae yna wersi cerddoriaeth yn digwydd mewn ysgolion ac mae hynny’n rhan o’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Ac, fel mae Chris wedi dweud, fe fydd e’n rhan o’r cwricwlwm newydd pan fydd Dyfodol Llwyddiannus yn cael ei weithredu ar draws ein hysgolion. Felly, mae yna addysg, mae yna ddysgu cerddoriaeth yn digwydd. Wrth gwrs, mae yna hefyd, fel rŷm ni’n gwybod, angen i ni ddatblygu offerynwyr a’r rheini sydd yn defnyddio’u llais efallai y tu hwnt i’r gwersi hynny. Ac yn yr agwedd honno rŷm ni’n credu ein bod ni’n gweld rhywfaint o argyfwng neu her benodol ynglŷn â sut rŷm ni’n cynnal y gwasanaethau hynny. Rŷm ni’n ymwybodol bod rhai awdurdodau yn edrych ar ffyrdd blaengar o wneud hynny drwy edrych ar ddatblygu gwasanaethau mwy hybrid nag sydd yno ar hyn o bryd, drwy sicrhau eu bod nhw’n cael nawdd o weithio gydag oedolion drwy therapi cerdd, er enghraifft. Mae hynny’n dod â chyllid i mewn i’r gwasanaeth sydd yn gallu, wedyn, sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth yn fwy cadarn o ran ei gyllid. Felly, mae yna wasanaethau yn edrych ar hynny. Rŷm ni’n gwybod hefyd fod rhai ysgolion yn edrych ar sut gallant gefnogi plant sydd o gefndiroedd mwy difreintiedig, a sut mae amddifadedd yn effeithio ar hynny, ac efallai’r defnydd o’r grant amddifadedd yn cael ei ddefnyddio, i ryw raddau beth bynnag, i gynnal y math o addysg, neu’r math o wersi sydd eu hangen ar blant.

 

Mr Evans: If I could endorse what Chris has said, there are challenges facing us, there’s no doubt about that at all, and those challenges are ones relating mainly to funding and how we ensure that the services are funded appropriately, and sufficiently. To a certain extent as well, we have to look at the range of provision that is offered. There are music lessons happening in schools and that is part of the national curriculum. And, as Chris said, it will be part of the new curriculum when Successful Futures is implemented across our schools. So, there is music education happening, but, of course, also, as we know, there is a need for us to develop instrumentalists and those who use their voices maybe beyond those lessons. And in that respect, I think that we do see possibly a crisis, or a specific challenge about how we maintain or sustain those services. We are aware that some authorities are looking at very progressive ways of doing that by looking at developing hybrid services—more hybrid than the ones that exist presently—by ensuring that they receive sponsorship in terms of working with adults through music therapy and so forth. That bring funding in to the service, which then can be used to ensure that that service is more robust in terms of funding. So, there are services looking at that. We also know that some schools are looking at how they can support children from disadvantaged backgrounds, and how deprivation affects that, and perhaps use of the deprivation grant being used to a certain extent to sustain or provide the kind of education and tuition that children need.

[8]          A ydy e’n argyfyngus? Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr, ond mae eisiau i ni fod yn wyliadwrus, ac mae eisiau i ni ddeall beth yw’r pinch points, beth yw’r union faterion rŷm ni’n eu hwynebu, ac yna rwy’n credu bod rhaid i ni edrych ar sut gallwn ni ddatrys y materion hynny mewn modd blaengar, gan fod yn ymwybodol bod cyllid yn yrrwr go sylweddol o ran yr hyn rŷm ni’n ceisio ei gyflawni.

 

Is it a crisis? Well, I’m not sure, but we need to be careful, and we need to understand what the pinch points are and the exact problems that we do face, and then I think we need to look at how we can resolve those issues in a progressive way, being aware that funding is a significant driver in terms of what we’re trying to achieve.

[9]          Ms Archer: Yes, I think that the main thing is that there is a huge variety—I know you’ve heard from colleagues already from other music services across Wales as part of the inquiry—in the funding that’s been left in place and the models of delivery that, as a result, have been developed. I don’t think that over the last 20 years there has been any strategy to arrive at the point that we are now at, so as a result of that, I think each local authority, or each music service, has responded individually in different ways to the challenges of funding cuts. I think, as a result of that, there are now huge differences in how fit for purpose people are to move forward.

 

[10]      So, broad examples of that are where we’ve got small authorities that have had funding cuts and have responded by salami-slicing, if you like, the structure of staffing that they had in place, they are now at a point where they’re responding as best they can to the demand in their area, but they’ve perhaps got one music service manager carrying out all the roles of an SRT team, so dealing with the HR, the safeguarding, the website and everything. You’ve got other services, like ourselves in Gwent, that have stayed as a collaborative cross-authority model and, happily for us, because ever since 1996 we’ve stayed more or less as the footprint of Gwent, we’ve been able to sustain some of the structure in terms of a business team that we had. It’s made it an awful lot easier for us to make sure that we’re futureproofing at each stage, and being ready for the next step of challenge.

 

[11]      The worry and the crisis, as it has been called, for us now is, I think, whereas the funding challenges to date have perhaps been dealt with by efficiencies in staffing, or efficiencies in stock, or efficiencies in the way that we deliver, the majority of people are now at the stage where the way that we would take forward any further cuts would be to pass them further on to the children—therefore, increase the hourly rate to schools, increase charges for local groups, start charging for instrument loans, some of which some of us are doing already. So, in those cases, it’s a case of increasing those charges rather than starting to charge.

 

[12]      So, I think that the point that we’ve reached now is that we either need to look at an entirely new way of working, which delivers up fairly huge efficiencies, and possibly doesn’t deliver in the same way as we do at the moment, or there does need to be additional funding that comes in line and comes some way to putting us on an even keel with Scotland or with England. You’ve heard evidence from Richard Hallam that the pupil offer in Wales is considerably lower per head than it is in the other nations. And so, although you’ve got a really willing and creative team of music educators that are doing their best to carry on delivering, I do feel we’re approaching the point now where it will be difficult not to have that impact felt directly by pupils in the future.

 

09:15

 

[13]      Bethan Jenkins: Thanks. I just wondered if I could ask you specifically, Emma, if you have—apologies if you’ve given it in the document—a list of all of the music tutors, through the music service, who provide tutoring across Wales because what we struggle with is getting a clear picture, as I’m sure potentially you do, as to who actually goes into schools, and who is doing what, where. Does that information exist with you?

 

[14]      Ms Archer: We don’t have as detailed a document—. The reason for spending on the Scottish report is, I think, that’s a really good piece of work that has been done. And I know that, in England, they do a similar report because of having to justify the £75 million. The picture that I’ve got is just one that I’ve managed to compile in the 18 months in my role as chair of CAGAC. I’ve got the full figures that we’ve got: I’ve got the qualified versus unqualified teacher status, and an idea of how the tutors are delivering—some of the detail of which is in the task and finish response from CAGAC. But, beyond that, there’s not the level of detail, I’m afraid, that there is in the Scottish report because we simply haven’t got the resources to do that, and that would be something that would be really welcome, I think—to have a more detailed picture.

 

[15]      Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in, Chair? We will be, jointly between ADEW and CAGAC, and in partnership with the Welsh Government, providing a report to the Cabinet Secretary as a follow-up to some of the Karl Napieralla review, and it will be based on some of the information collected though CAGAC. We’d be happy to share that with the committee when it goes to the Cabinet Secretary perhaps.

 

[16]      Bethan Jenkins: Y cwestiwn olaf sydd gennyf  ar hyn o bryd yw: jest o glywed beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud, Chris Llewelyn ac Aled Evans, o ran rôl llywodraeth leol, a gaf i jest gadarnhau really, ar ein cyfer ni, i wybod pan fyddwn ni’n edrych ar sut i ariannu hyn wrth symud ymlaen, nad ydych chi’n credu mai rôl awdurdodau lleol yw rhoi’r arian yma gerbron? Hynny yw, rydych chi’n dweud ei bod hi jest wedi fod yn rhyw fath o ffliwc eich bod chi wedi bod yn y sefyllfa yma. Os mai nid chi sydd yn ariannu, a ydych chi’n credu mai corff newydd felly, National Youth Arts Wales Ltd, a ddylai fod wedyn yn ariannu’r gweithredoedd lleol?

 

Bethan Jenkins: The final question I have at the moment is: just listening to what you were saying, Chris Llewelyn and Aled Evans, about the role of local government, could I just confirm then, just for us to know when we look at how to fund this in moving forward, that you don’t think that it’s the role of local authorities to give that funding? What you’re saying is that it’s just been a sort of fluke almost that you’ve been in that situation. If you are not providing the funding, do you think that a new body, National Youth Arts Wales Ltd, should be doing so, and funding the local operations? 

[17]      Dr Llewelyn: Na. Beth roeddwn i’n ei awgrymu oedd, o ran y grwpiau cenedlaethol, ei bod yn addas i gael corff penodol i drefnu’r holl weithgaredd ar gyfer y grwpiau hynny. Ond o ran y gwersi a hyfforddiant lleol, fe fyddwn i’n cytuno. Rwy’n credu bod adroddiad Karl Napieralla yn crybwyll ei bod yn bwysig fod y gweithgaredd a’r ddarpariaeth honno yn dal i fod yn lleol, wedi’u lleoli o amgylch ysgolion ac yn cael eu hariannu drwy awdurdodau lleol. Yr egwyddor yw, yn llythrennol mewn ffordd, y pwysigrwydd o ran cerdd o gael llais lleol fel petai, ac ymateb yn lleol i amgylchiadau lleol. Felly fe fyddwn i’n crybwyll bod yna ddwy haen: o ran y gweithgaredd cenedlaethol, bod y gweithgaredd hwnnw yn cael ei ariannu’n genedlaethol drwy’r corff hyd braich annibynnol, ond ein bod  ni’n parhau â’r drefn bresennol o ddarparu gwasanaeth sy’n agored i bawb drwy ysgolion ac awdurdodau lleol. Ac yn y cyswllt hwnnw, fe fyddwn i’n awgrymu taw’r broblem yw’r cyllido yn hytrach na strwythur y gwasanaeth.

 

Dr Llewelyn: No. What I was suggesting was, in terms of the national groups, that it is appropriate that you have a specific body to arrange all the activity for those groups. But in terms of lessons and local tuition, I would agree. I think that the report by Karl Napieralla does mention the fact that it’s important that the activity and that provision are still local, and located around the schools and funded through local authorities. The principle is, literally in a way, the importance in terms of music of having a local voice as it were, and responding locally to local conditions. So, I would say that there are two tiers: in terms of the national activity, that activity is funded nationally through the arm’s length body, which is independent, but then we continue with the current system of providing services that are open to all through schools and local authorities. And in that context I would suggest that the problem is funding rather than the structure of the service.

 

[18]      Bethan Jenkins: Oherwydd bod rhai ysgolion neu rai awdurdodau lleol yn dewis rhoi’r arian mewn llefydd eraill, er enghraifft, ac wedyn nid yw’r arian yn mynd at gerddoriaeth. A oes yna rywbeth rydych chi’n gallu ei roi fel rhyw fath o arweinyddiaeth i sicrhau bod yr ysgolion yn gwario’r arian ar gerddoriaeth?

Bethan Jenkins: Because some schools or some local authorities chose to put that money in other places, for example, and then that money does not go towards music. Is there something that you can give in terms of leadership to make sure that schools do spend that money on music?

 

[19]      Dr Llewelyn: Y drafferth yw pan fydd yna doriadau, yn anochel mae baich neu bwysau’r toriadau yn syrthio yn rhywle. Beth mae’r awdurdodau yn draddodiadol yn ei wneud yw, ar draws pob gwasanaeth, maen nhw’n blaenoriaethu’r gwasanaethu statudol a’r gwasanaethau sy’n cael eu harolygu yn allanol, ac yn y blaen. So, mae’n anochel. I chi fel pwyllgor, rŷm ni yn gyfarwydd iawn â thrafod toriadau sy’n digwydd mewn meysydd eraill o wasanaethau gwirfoddol—llyfrgelloedd, gwasanaethau hamdden, pyllau nofio, diwylliant, ac yn y blaen—a dyna beth sy’n digwydd yn y cyswllt yma.

 

Dr Llewelyn: The problem is that when there are cuts, inevitably the burden or the pressure of cuts does have to fall somewhere. And local authorities traditionally, across every service, have prioritised the statutory services and those that are inspected externally, and so forth. So, it’s inevitable. For you as a committee, we are very familiar with discussing cuts happening in other areas of voluntary services—libraries, leisure services, swimming pools and culture and so forth—and that’s what’s happening in this context.

[20]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Suzy Davies.

 

[21]      Suzy Davies: Thank you for your answers to date, and I’m mindful of what you’ve already told us before I ask this question, but I want to go back to the task and finish group. I was alarmed to hear you say, Chris, that things have actually deteriorated since the publication of that report, and you cited funding as the reason for that. But the report itself for the task and finish group did set out a series of recommendations—15 of them—the majority of which have made suggestions about what local authorities and the WLGA could and should do within a certain time frame. I hear what you say about money, but there were other things that you were being asked to do in that report, and there’s a range of them here. Can you tell me something about progress against those, whether funding has been a fundamental problem in progressing, or whether there are things you could have done but haven’t done that aren’t money related?

 

[22]      Dr Llewelyn: I think the timescale set out in the report, many of them slipped because of the date of the publication. One of the other things that’s happened is—as often happens—when there is an Assembly election and a change of Government and a change of Ministers and so on, priorities change and that causes something of a delay, as well. We’re working with the Welsh—

 

[23]      Suzy Davies: Sorry, can I just interrupt there? I don’t mean to interrupt the flow, particularly, but I don’t genuinely see how a Government election interrupts something the WLGA has been asked to do itself not involving Government.

 

[24]      Dr Llewelyn: Well, no, what I’d say to you is the status of the report has no bearing on the WLGA as such. We worked with Karl Napieralla, the authors of the report and the Welsh Government, both in advance of the publication of the report and then in terms of implementing the recommendations. But, you know, many of the recommendations—almost all of the recommendations—in the report have some kind of resource implication. If you look at the early ones in terms of collecting information, setting up databases—. One of the recommendations, for example, is: I think it says that the WLGA should set up a database of instruments. Well, again, that is quite a task. Creating a database of that kind and maintaining it is quite resource intensive, would require significant capacity—

 

[25]      Suzy Davies: Significant?

 

[26]      Dr Llewelyn: —and we wouldn’t have the capacity to do that. In discussion with authorities and with colleagues, it’s not absolutely clear the value—the cost-benefit if you like. The resource implications involved in setting that up would outweigh any of the benefits.

 

[27]      Suzy Davies: Is it easier to tell me which recommendations you and colleagues have managed to implement?

 

[28]      Dr Llewelyn: Well, I don’t actually have them in front of me—

 

[29]      Suzy Davies: We can help you with that.

 

[30]      Dr Llewelyn: —but in terms of assessing the current provision and the models used across authorities, we’ve got that information. I think the second recommendation, as well, we have information on that. One of the difficulties—

 

[31]      Mr Evans: Sorry, can I add to that? I think the—

 

[32]      Suzy Davies: Yes. I’m looking for good news.

 

[33]      Mr Evans: Well, I think it was useful in the sense that it gave us an opportunity to compare and contrast approaches across Wales. As I mentioned earlier, there was an opportunity to understand how some local authorities were looking at trying to attract additional funding by enhancing or extending the scope of the music service through music therapy, through post-16 education and a range of other activities that would then seek to underpin the service. I don’t think we can, and I’m not suggesting that we are in any way, underestimating the impact of budget cuts and financial pressures. As Chris quite rightly said, when we are facing these pressures, we will always look at trying to prioritise. We will prioritise, for instance, the statutory services, because that was what we expected to do, and those services that are subject to external inspection or regulatory inspection. Currently, music services are not and that may be something that we need to look at.

 

[34]      Although Estyn did do a piece of work, I think, six years ago, on music services in Wales, and surprise, surprise, they said that funding was one of the key issues as far as that was concerned. So, I don’t think we can underestimate the impact of funding on the whole model. So, in the sense that it brought a picture across Wales that was useful, I would agree with Chris in terms of the database of instruments and the repair and maintenance service, I think there’s some more work to be done as far as looking at the cost-benefits of such a model, at a time when we are just trying to maintain the current service in schools, as Emma has indicated.

 

[35]      Suzy Davies: Yes, as I say, I was mindful of the answers you gave before I asked my question. Can I ask you a simple one then, that doesn’t cost anything? The terms of reference, have they been adopted by all local authorities?

 

[36]      Mr Evans: I don’t believe that they’ve been—. I can’t answer that specifically.

 

[37]      Ms Archer: I think, in the response that we’ve given, one of the appendices is that we asked music services to what extent they had been able to implement the terms of reference. Clearly, some of the difficulties are to do with funding, because it is linked directly to our ability to be able to offer a clear offer to every pupil, and in terms of parity of charging structures and that kind of thing, then there are direct links with funding. What you find, looking at it, is that, obviously, in the services that are not at zero funding at the moment, to a large degree they are delivering. The terms of reference were great, and they are a good starting point for us all to have some kind of plan to work towards. But, clearly, it’s not possible to expect every music service to deliver all of these terms of reference if there’s a complete inequality of funding in the first place.

 

[38]      Just going back to the database, we did speak about this earlier this week. In Gwent, we use a software package that administers all of our instrument loans, all of our payroll, all of our direct payment collection from schools and parents. It’s a software package that’s used extensively in England, and there are a number of large music services, such as Hertfordshire, that use this to basically administer every aspect of their service. There would be, I believe personally, benefits in looking at using that as some kind of central data collection. It is a bespoke music service package that’s been developed, but obviously there are costs attached to having enough licences for every service to use it in Wales.

 

[39]      I know, from speaking to colleagues that are now in that difficult position where they’re trying to find ways forward, the set-up cost for it is somewhere in the region of between £15,000 and £20,000, which obviously for a service that’s already at zero funding, they simply haven’t got that money to invest in a new way of working. But, I do believe that there are some advantages in having some kind of centralised or regional database, so at least we could look at, if there’s a bank of violins that’s not being used in Rhondda Cynon Taf that could be used in Bridgend, that we communicate with each other and say ‘How can we benefit?’ At the moment, we can do that in an informal way—and it does happen in an informal way, where you’ll get a phone call saying, ‘Has anybody got a tuba that’s available for a course?’ or a really high-quality instrument that somebody hasn’t got—but on a grand scale, where you’re talking about tens of thousands of instruments, I think the first step would be to get everybody onto the same software package, the next step would be to organise it regionally, and then to pull it into a national place where we could report then for Welsh Government to say exactly what the picture is, both in terms of stock and in terms of numbers.

 

09:30

 

[40]      Suzy Davies: Okay, that’s very helpful. I’ve just got one small question, because I know you want to ask something, Neil.

 

[41]      Neil Hamilton: I’m just following you up.

 

[42]      Suzy Davies: I just want to say I approve any sort of innovative ideas to lever money in—I think that’s good for us to hear. Could I just ask this one question, though? Something I hope was done is that all the local authorities did give the WLGA an idea of their service delivery model. Did you get that information?

 

[43]      Dr Llewelyn: Yes.

 

[44]      Suzy Davies: That’s fine. Thank you very much.

 

[45]      Dr Llewelyn: Could I come back on something, on what you wanted to progress? In terms of the—. You asked about the various fragmentations. In the response we give to the Cabinet Secretary, we’ll provide information about all of the recommendations that did apply to us. But one of the examples, I think, that we’ve discussed at other times with the committee is the issue of alternative models of delivery. Every service area that faces challenges, and are cut, faces the challenge of coming up with alternative models, being more creative and more imaginative and so on. You see it especially with regard to culture and leisure services, where many authorities create trusts around their services and so on. We provide information through various channels to support authorities in those kinds of transitional arrangements, but what we don’t do is provide bespoke support and information for every single service area. So, with regard to music services, what we would do is provide generic information, but we simply, as a small organisation, wouldn’t have the capacity to provide that for every single service area.

 

[46]      Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

 

[47]      Bethan Jenkins: Neil Hamilton.

 

[48]      Neil Hamilton: I’m rather perplexed by what we’ve just heard, in a way, because I’m amazed there should be any doubt about whether you should have a database of musical instruments. I mean any business keeps a database of its assets, otherwise you’ve no idea when things go missing, or what needs to be replaced, or where there are gaps. It may be, as this hasn’t been done in the past, that there are resource implications for setting this up, but surely it can’t be that great. It’s simply plugging information in—gathering it from the authorities that should have these assets, plugging it into a spreadsheet, and there it is. Keeping it up to date can hardly be a massively resource intensive activity, and the sums of money that we’re talking about here generally—in relation to ensemble funding, for example, we’re talking about £0.5 million in terms of cuts, compared with last year’s funding, for the whole of Wales. At 22 authorities, that’s an average of £25,000 per head. I mean that disappears in the—. Because this has got areas of almost every branch of service that you provide. So, what’s the difficulty? Aren’t we getting everything out of proportion?

 

[49]      Mr Evans: I think, as far as the database is concerned, it’s not just a count of the instruments. It’s an understanding of the condition of the instruments, it’s an understanding of whether they are used or not at that very point of time and so forth. Individual local authorities—and I can say, as I’m from Neath Port Talbot—do have a database of instruments, although we are in a position where we have recently separated the service from a neighbouring authority, and that has then caused some difficulties in understanding exactly where the stock is and so forth. I wouldn’t want you to run away with the idea that there are no databases out there whatsoever. There are databases; I think what we’re looking at is the scaling up of that, and then how that can be used dynamically to support music tuition across Wales. So, you know, the counting of instruments I don’t think is a huge issue. It’s about having some kind of consistency then in the use of that database and the use of the database as well, which is slightly different.

 

[50]      Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in on the—? Sorry, go on.

 

[51]      Ms Archer: I was just going to say ‘yes’. It’s not entirely—it’s not static stock. So, half of the problem is that, as fast as you allocate an instrument to a child, perhaps in September, maybe, by after October half-term, they will have decided to either buy their own instrument or move school or—there’s a whole plethora of reasons why the instrument can move. So, it is a challenging area to manage, and it is being done locally. I’m sorry if I gave the impression that it wasn’t; it is being done locally, but what we’re not doing at the moment is, as a matter of course, sharing that information across regions, or nationally, and I think that’s what was implied in the recommendation—were there any economies of scale to be gained by doing that? It is a little bit of, the amount of resource that would need to go into doing that, does that actually bring any benefits to the system that’s already up and running?

 

[52]      Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in on the national arts ensemble? You’re right in terms of the figures. They are relatively small, but it reflects the pressure that authorities are under. So, when they set their budgets, they look at their statutory responsibility, many authorities are trying to avoid compulsory redundancies, and they look to shave sums of money wherever possible to make savings. In this instance, we collectively looked at the way the national youth arts ensembles were funded in other parts of the United Kingdom, in Northern Ireland, Scotland, in England and across the United Kingdom, and nowhere else were they funded through local government. In every other case they were funded primarily by central Government, but also then, in terms of smaller amounts, through sponsorship. Endowments are set up elsewhere and tuition fees as well. But Wales was the only country where local government funded the national arts ensembles to such a great extent.

 

[53]      Bethan Jenkins: Just for the record, though, if we could have your responses to the 15 recommendations, because I thought you would have anticipated that we would have asked those questions today. So, if you can send us your responses to that task and finish group, we’d be grateful. Lee Waters.

 

[54]      Lee Waters: Thank you. I just want to follow up a couple of points. As a general point, I fully recognise the pressure that local authorities are under and the choices that you have to make. I think we’re all sympathetic to that, but it’s helpful for us to get a searingly clear picture of where things are at. So, just a couple of follow up points to each of you, if I may. But first of all, Chris Llewelyn, you said that the task and finish group report had no bearing on the WLGA, and that changing ministerial priorities had meant that the focus had gone elsewhere. So, can I just be clear in my understanding of the relationship the WLGA has with that report? Is it that you were not given any ministerial direction, once it was published, to implement it? Or are there other reasons why you feel it has no bearing?

 

[55]      Dr Llewelyn: No, sorry, I didn’t say that it had no bearing. If I did, it wasn’t the intention to communicate that. We worked closely in advance of the report, and following the publication of it as well, and what we’ve been doing with the Welsh Government and other partners is seeing how, effectively, we can work our way through the recommendations and to try and make progress wherever we can, but in a proportionate way, given the capacity that we’ve got as an organisation at our disposal.

 

[56]      Some of the recommendations, from our perspective, can’t be implemented fully. I think some of the timescales have slipped as well, and, as I mentioned, in terms of developing models of good practice, for example, we’re able to do that in a generic way, but we don’t have the capacity to do it specifically in the way that I think the report envisages for music services.

 

[57]      Lee Waters: I realise the WLGA yourself has had a cut in resources, and your capacity is reduced, but it sounds to me, based on the evidence Emma Archer has just given us, that a judgment was made that it wasn’t worth the effort of carrying through some of the recommendations in the report without extra resources, or because you thought it had no intrinsic value.

 

[58]      Dr Llewelyn: No, I don’t think that’s the case. I think, as I say, we embraced it.

 

[59]      Lee Waters: Well, Emma Archer, with respect, just said that there was no point in sharing the local databases on a national level because that wasn’t going to bring value. So, that was what you told us.

 

[60]      Dr Llewelyn: No, what I’m saying is that there wasn’t a strategic decision taken that there was no value in implementing the recommendations. What we’ve tried to do is implement the recommendations as far as we can within the capacity that we’ve got and in terms of the cost benefit of implementing the recommendations.

 

[61]      Lee Waters: Right. So, a judgment was made about the cost benefit and whether or not that was something you should do.

 

[62]      Dr Llewelyn: An assessment is made constantly, because the position isn’t a static one—services are in a state of flux because of the way that budgets are set and, particularly, because of the late notice that authorities are given in terms of their budgets. So, for example, last year, authorities would have been planning on a 4 per cent assumption in terms of the cut to their settlement. As it transpired, I think it was about a 2.5 per cent cut, but that information wouldn’t have come to authorities until January. So, the idea of a planned, if you like, retreat from service provision, it doesn’t quite work like that. The position is a very unstable one, and every aspect of the provision is in a state of flux. So, it means constantly having to make adjustments and responding—

 

[63]      Lee Waters: Sure, I understand that. Before I move on to something else, I just want to ask you—just in terms of I’m not clear what you feel the leadership role of the WLGA is. I hear what you said about your use of the term of having no bearing, but you gave evidence at the end there, drawing comparison with other parts of the UK, where local government wasn’t expected to take a role in these things, it was done centrally. That is slightly at odds with the general WLGA view about where power and responsibility should lie, which is, generally speaking, that local authorities should have maximum discretion and, through the general power of competence that you’ve been hoping for under the new local government Bill, for example, there’s a general feeling that local government should have its own way within its own backyard, but you’re saying in this area it’s not an area you think local government should lead.

 

[64]      Dr Llewelyn: No, I was—. Well, I was simply saying that, in terms of the national youth arts ensembles, having looked at the way they’re funded and arranged elsewhere, that it made more sense to set up the National Youth Arts Wales. As they were configured, some of the ensembles were run through the WJEC, some through Tŷ Cerdd, funded by the arts council, and the WJEC funding came from, in a sense, the Welsh Government—

 

[65]      Lee Waters: That’s the national ensembles. In terms of music services—

 

[66]      Dr Llewelyn: Well, you were asking specifically about the national—

 

[67]      Lee Waters: Sure, and thank you for clarifying that. In terms of music services, that is a role that local government should take the lead on—

 

[68]      Dr Llewelyn: Yes, we—

 

[69]      Lee Waters: —so, what should the WLGA’s leadership role within that be?

 

[70]      Dr Llewelyn: We would subscribe to the view taken by Karl Napieralla in terms of the report, that they’re best delivered as locally as possible through schools and through local authorities. On the wider point, in terms of the role of local government, you’re right, what we have constantly argued is that decisions about how services are run, managed, funded and delivered should be taken as close to the point of delivery as is possible, or as is appropriate. In some instances, that means at a very local level, but, in some instances, it could mean at a regional level.

 

[71]      Lee Waters: So, just to finish this off, in terms of the WLGA’s leadership role within that, you accept that you should have a co-ordinating role, it’s just you haven’t done it here because of the lack of resources.

 

[72]      Dr Llewelyn: No. In this instance, the WLGA has worked very closely both with the Welsh Government and with the committee, both in advance of the recommendations and afterwards, and with other partners as well, so we liaise closely with—

 

[73]      Lee Waters: But you took a judgment not to proceed with the recommendations of the task and finish group. Was that because of resources only?

 

[74]      Dr Llewelyn: No, what we—. In terms of the recommendations of the task and finish group, what we’ve done is looked at each one in turn and done as much we can within the capacity that we’ve got.

 

[75]      Lee Waters: Okay. Well, we’ll look forward to seeing that. Chair, if I might just move on to Aled Evans, you said—at the beginning, you gave a rather upbeat assessment, I thought, about the state of the service; you said that music is being taught in classes. But the evidence we’ve had, and, certainly, my own experience in my constituency—it’s a very varied picture. In some schools, if a head is excited about it, music is part of the whole school environment and, in others, it’s virtually invisible. So, I just wanted you just to tell us a little bit more about your assessment of the current state of music being taught and also just to touch upon the impact on pupils from a lower income background, because it’s quite clear from the evidence we’ve had across the board that fees are likely to increase as a way of making up the funding mix. You suggested that the deprivation grant would be a way of helping to meet some of this. But I’m surprised by that, because the deprivation grant is already under huge pressure within schools to fund a variety of things, and that’s heavily at the discretion of the head, which reinforces the first point that we’re leaving this system to the discretion of individual heads. Inevitably, therefore, there are going to be a number of schools that are going to do very little.

 

09:45

 

[76]      Mr Evans: Okay. If we can take the first part, then, which is the general state of music, I think what I was trying to do was to try and draw a difference between what happens within the music learning within the national curriculum—it’s a part of the national curriculum; it’s a part of the learning within the foundation phase; it’s a part of what is delivered within key stage 2 and key stage 3; and then, obviously, it’s optional at key stage 4. That is the learning that happens across—

 

[77]      Lee Waters: Does that happen in every school?

 

[78]      Mr Evans: Across all schools. It’s a part of the national curriculum. I can’t answer for every school in Wales but they should be delivering the national curriculum. They should be delivering what is expected as far as that’s concerned.

 

[79]      Lee Waters: So, in your local authority, is that happening in every school?

 

[80]      Mr Evans: Music learning happens in every school, yes, as a part of the national curriculum. So, teachers will be teaching about music, about composers, about musicians and the Cwricwlwm Cymreig, as far as music is concerned. They will be learning about different composers with Welsh roots and Welsh connections and so forth, and about instruments that have developed in Wales over the years. So, that is part—

 

[81]      Lee Waters: Not necessarily playing instruments.

 

[82]      Mr Evans: That is part of the national curriculum. I was drawing a slight distinction between that learning and then the tuition learning that happens beyond those lessons very often. Although I do accept, in many instances, as part of the SLA with schools, the music tutor will go in and have a full-class responsibility—in some instances. In other instances it will be on a one-to-one basis. I know that for voice, for instance, that will very often be taken through groups of youngsters—sometimes whole classes and so forth. So, I think we need to understand the breadth of what is happening there. The national curriculum stuff is funded through delegated funding; and then, over and above that, you have the variation of funding. It’s non-statutory, as we’ve said previously; so, there’s a variation in how that is funded. That information is available. I think the latest we have is from 2015-16. As Emma, Chris and I have indicated, things have changed since that time, probably negatively in most cases. So, there is a distinction there. I think there was a second part to your question—

 

[83]      Lee Waters: The pupil deprivation grant.

 

[84]      Mr Evans: Yes, the pupil deprivation grant. That is there to try and counter and compensate for the material disadvantage that pupils have. So, that would be an avenue that could be open to schools, as long as it’s—. Obviously, there would have to be an agreement that it’s within the terms of reference of the pupil deprivation grant and so forth. I think, within that, I would be satisfied that that can be used because it is a means of trying to compensate for the material disadvantage that youngsters have.

 

[85]      Lee Waters: Sure, but in terms of addressing the whole point of this inquiry, which is the teaching of music in schools, you’d expect that that would be a fairly incidental piece of the armoury to lifting this agenda, wouldn’t you?

 

[86]      Mr Evans: Yes. I’m not saying for one moment that that is the silver bullet, as far as this is concerned. I think there is a need for us to really understand how youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds—very often talented youngsters, as far as music is concerned—do have that step up, that support, to develop their skills beyond the national curriculum, which is what the music tuition services do in Wales.

 

[87]      Lee Waters: Yes, but it’s not really a substantive piece of solving this problem, the use of the PDG, really, is it?

 

[88]      Mr Evans: No. I don’t think I suggested that, and if I did I think I may have given you the wrong impression.

 

[89]      Lee Waters: Okay. Thank you.

 

[90]      Bethan Jenkins: Emma, would you like to come in on this?

 

[91]      Ms Archer: Yes, just in regard to music in the curriculum and the PDG, and perhaps the money that’s been invested—the £20 million that’s going into the plan for creative learning support. I think CAGAC as a group and individual heads of service would totally commend that investment in education and heightening the profile of the arts in schools. However, as you rightly say, that in itself is not really having any impact whatsoever on individual vocal and instrumental tuition. On the spin around the £20 million when it was originally launched, I think a lot of schools, teachers and services thought that, perhaps, there would be an element of that that would come specifically to music. On the ground, what happens is that there are short-term projects that are going in specifically to equip teachers to deliver more creatively numeracy and literacy; they’re one-term projects between January and April and they’re not really having any legacy in terms of the instrumental or vocal take-up at the end. Schools do use the PDG in some areas where there is high PDG, and that’s another key point: not all schools’ budgets benefit from huge PDG grants in the first place. So, there are some schools that do use it, either to deliver whole-class projects or to supplement small group tuition if they’ve got particular learners that fall into that category. But the PDG grant is fairly nailed down in how it can be used, and so, increasingly, it does come down to individual headteachers, as you say, and school budgets, to make a discretionary decision as to whether or not they can and are able to supplement or subsidise tuition at all. Actually, the plan for creative learning funding is not going any way towards that.

 

[92]            Just as an aside, going back to the point about the local authority funding, if we look at Scotland, for example, there is £26 million that goes in from local authorities to their 25 authorities—their music services—and they have £10 million in addition to that, which is their individual music fund, which is similar—. Obviously, because of Scotland being mid-way through Donaldson in the same way as we are, it’s a useful comparison to make. So, first of all, Scottish music services are still highly funded by their local authorities, then there’s £10 million in addition that’s going in to specifically work with music in a similar way to the First Access fund working in England. So, it’s just being clear that we are way behind in terms of the investment of individual pupils, and the impact of that is, I think, in 10 years’ time, going to be quite significant.

 

[93]      Bethan Jenkins: Hannah.

 

[94]      Hannah Blythyn: Thanks, Chair. I just wanted to return to concerns on how the cuts in funding are impacting on specific groups of pupils, and particularly those, perhaps, from lower income backgrounds. Do you share those concerns, and do you have any evidence? Also, I think, Aled, you mentioned about how some schools look at how they support children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Are there any examples of best practice that could be implemented on a more prescriptive basis?

 

[95]      Mr Evans: Yes, I share those concerns. I think that there should be equity. It shouldn’t be something of an elite activity in any sense. So, I certainly share those concerns. I think, as Emma has said, there are some individual schools—I don’t have the exact knowledge or the precise knowledge, but there are individual schools who subsidise the learning for youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds. I’m going to ask Emma, who probably has a more detailed knowledge, to answer some of the specifics around what is the picture around funding, or subsidy, I suppose, for those pupils.

 

[96]      Ms Archer: One of the recommendations that came out of the task and finish report was that there were funds set up specifically for free-school-meal pupils. I can speak confidently about my service. So, three out of the four authorities of Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen, Newport and Monmouthshire—that’s the area that we cover—have dedicated a specific free-school-meals grant that we administer, and Blaenau Gwent still offer children who are free-school-meals—that they control through schools. So, there is that element within our authority of that access for those who are disadvantaged. I’m not sure how much parity there is across the whole of Wales in terms of that, and I do think that’s one thing that needs addressing, actually. Because I think some of that is still contained within the general local authority funding that  goes into music services, and obviously if they’re already at zero funding, then, other than using PDG, there is no other avenue for them to apply. But there’s also something around the ‘just about managing’ children in the middle, because increasingly what we’re finding is that it’s not just those who are eligible for free school meals who are struggling; it’s those families who are really supportive and have talented children who really should be given the opportunity. But, as we’re piling on costs for lessons, instruments and regional orchestras, and as the national groups are increasing their fees—. That’s why the endowment announcement is very welcome. If that’s an avenue for those children to access, then that’ll be excellent, but there are a lot of families who fall into that category that simply don’t start to play an instrument because they know upfront what the cost is and they don’t fall into the category of being able to access any support.

 

[97]      Bethan Jenkins: Dai Lloyd.

 

[98]      Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Mae nifer o’r agweddau roeddwn i eisiau eu codi eisoes wedi cael eu hateb. Mae’n bwysig nodi cefndir hyn oll, achos mae’r pwyllgor hwn yn cario allan yr ymchwiliad yma ar gais y cyhoedd. Er yr holl waith sydd wedi mynd ymlaen dros y blynyddoedd, a’r cylch gorchwyl a gorffen a stwff, ym mhen y cyhoedd, hwn ydy’r pwnc pwysicaf ar hyn o bryd, achos roedd yna bôl piniwn ar-lein. Felly, dyna pam rydym yn gwneud yr ymchwiliad yma.

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. A number of aspects I wanted to raise have already been addressed. It’s important to note the background of this, because this committee is carrying out this inquiry at the request of the public. Despite all the work that’s been conducted previously and the task and finish group and so forth, in the mind of the public, this is the most important subject at the moment because there was an opinion poll online. That’s why we’re doing this inquiry.

 

[99]      Felly, yn dilyn hynny, rydym ni wedi cael disgrifiad o broblemau cyllido ac ati, ac mae pethau’n gallu bod yn gymhleth, ond beth fyddech chi’n licio eu gweld fel argymhellion y pwyllgor yma yn dod allan, i o leiaf trio cael gafael ar y sefyllfa yma i’r dyfodol? Achos byddwn yn cael polau piniwn eraill sydd yn dal i ddweud bod hyn yn dal yn her sylweddol, oni bai—.

 

Therefore, following on from that, we’ve had a description of the funding problems and so forth, and things can be complicated, but what would you like to see as recommendations by this committee to try and tackle the situation for the future? Because we will have other opinion polls that will still say that this is a significant challenge, unless—.

[100]   Mr Evans: Rwy’n credu byddwn i’n dymuno gweld rhywbeth yn benodol yn cael ei ddweud ynglŷn â phlant o gefndir lle mae amddifadedd yn effeithio ar eu gallu nhw i gael mynediad. Rwy’n credu, fel yr oedd Emma yn cyfeirio ato, bod yna, mewn ffordd, rhyw garfan anweledig bron, lle nad ydyn nhw’n ceisio cael gwersi oherwydd maen nhw’n gwybod yn iawn na fydd y teulu’n gallu talu amdanyn nhw. Felly, rwy’n credu bod angen inni ddeall hynny.

 

Mr Evans: I think that I would like to see something specific being said about children from a disadvantaged background that affects their ability to access the service. As Emma said, there is, in a way, an unseen cohort almost, who are not attempting to access lessons because they know full well that the family won’t be able to afford to pay for them. So, I think that we do need to understand that.

[101]   Nid wyf yn gwybod beth yw’r ateb ac nid wyf yn gwybod sut yn union y gallwn ddatrys y peth, ond mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod ei fod yn fater y mae angen inni, fel pobl sydd yn arwain ac yn rheoli gwasanaethau trwy Gymru—. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod ei fod yn fater ac yn fater difrifol, oherwydd nid wyf yn credu y dylai un plentyn gael ei amddifadu o’r cyfle i gael gwersi cerddoriaeth—neu wersi offerynnol, sydd ychydig bach yn wahanol i wersi cerddoriaeth. Felly, rwy’n credu bod hwnnw’n rhywbeth y buaswn i’n dymuno i chi edrych arno’n fanwl.

 

I don’t know what the answer is and I don’t know how exactly we can solve that issue, but we do need to recognise that that is an issue that we, as people who are leading in this area and managing services throughout Wales—. We need to recognise that it’s an issue and is a serious issue because I don’t think that any child should be deprived of the opportunity to have music lessons—or instrumental lessons, which are slightly different from music lessons. So, I think that that is something that I would like you to look at very specifically.

 

[102]   Mae yna gyfle hefyd inni efallai edrych ar sut y gallwn ni—ac rwy’n dweud hyn gyda fy nhafod yn fy moch—gydweithio mwy gydag awdurdodau eraill.

 

There is an opportunity also for us to look at how we can—and I say this with my tongue in my cheek—collaborate more extensively with other authorities.

[103]   Bethan Jenkins: Unrhyw un arall? Emma? Chris?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Anyone else? Emma? Chris?

[104]   Ms Archer: Just to say that I think, certainly, the children are absolutely at the centre of this and the main thing for us all is to find a way that people are not disadvantaged by the start of the journey and the finance to do that. But I do think that there’s something important that we acknowledge: that it is very much about preserving some kind of structure and quality to the work that we’re delivering. The real danger at the moment is that there’s a heads-down approach and that each local authority music service just pulls inwards and is paddling really fast to keep going and perhaps loses sight of what the bigger objectives should be.

 

[105]   One of the things that we are facing challenges with is having enough staff to do the quality assurance: making sure that teachers are monitored, making sure that there’s training in place and making sure that there are the correct operational aspects behind a music service to be able to move forward. The real danger, if the funding cuts continue, as they’re set to do for the next two years, without there being any additional solution, is that it becomes very disparate and actually you end up with really small groups of staff who set up as co-operatives, and there’s no communication, there’s no monitoring of those staff, and perhaps individual children will still end up having a really great lesson with a particular teacher who teaches in their school because that just so happens to work, but we will lose the consistency that we even have at the moment, and I think that, at that point, the route through to the national groups will be even more difficult and it will be even more—

 

10:00

 

[106]   Bethan Jenkins: So, what’s your solution or idea? I think that’s what Dai was trying to ask.

 

[107]   Ms Archer: I think that more regional working is the way forward. I do think we need to look at economies of scale and make sure that we are pooling resources. I think CAGAC, as a group, and the heads of service would actually welcome more direction from the WLGA in terms of strategies for how we can more consistently work in our regions, and I think that, whilst there is a local flavour in each case, perhaps we need to make sure that we don’t end up being so passionate about our own little patch that we forget that there needs to be a solution to this at the end of the day that doesn’t disadvantage the children that we’re meant to be delivering to.

 

[108]   Bethan Jenkins: Chris, yn fras.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Chris, broadly.

[109]   Dr Llywelyn: Byddwn i’n cytuno â nifer o’r sylwadau. Mae yna gwestiwn, onid oes e, ynglŷn â fel yr ŷm ni’n gwerthuso hynny a blaenoriaethu’r ddarpariaeth offerynnol a chanu? Mae’n amlwg bod pethau—fel yr oeddwn i’n crebwyll yn gynharach—mae pethau’n gwella ynglŷn â’r cyrff cenedlaethol o ran rôl cerdd yn y cwricwlwm. Mae’n amlwg hefyd, o ran gwersi offerynnol a chanu, efallai bod pethau yn cwympo y tu ôl ryw damaid, ychydig. Un o’r pethau a fyddai’n helpu awdurdodau yn sylweddol yw bod â’r gallu yna i gynllunio yn hirach dros dymor, yn hirach nag yn flynyddol—pe bai’n bosibl cynllunio dros gyfnod o bum mlynedd. Mae’r gwasanaeth yma yn enghraifft o le y byddai hynny yn dipyn o fudd pe bai hynny’n bosibl, achos y gwirionedd yw, beth sy’n digwydd, pan fo yna doriadau mewn cyllidebau, nid yw effaith y toriadau yna ddim yn cael ei chynllunio yn strategol, achos bod awdurdodau lleol yn gorfod ymateb yn y tymor byr ar fyr rybudd.

 

Dr Llywelyn: I would agree with many of those comments. There is a question here, isn’t there, about how we evaluate that and prioritise instrumental and vocal provision? It is clear that things—as I mentioned earlier—things are improving in relation to the national bodies, specifically with regard to music in the curriculum. It’s also clear that, with regard to instrumental and vocal lessons, maybe things are slipping a little. One of the things that will help local authorities significantly would be to have the ability to plan ahead over the longer term, rather than annually—if we could plan over a period of five years. This service is an example of where that would be of great benefit if we were able to do that, because the fact is, what happens is, when there are cuts to budgets, the effect of those cuts is not planned at a strategic level, because local authorities have to respond in the short term and at short notice.

[110]   Dai Lloyd: Diolch.

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you.

[111]   Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters.

 

[112]   Lee Waters: Two questions. I’m conscious of the time, so I’d be grateful if you could—

 

[113]   Bethan Jenkins: We started a bit late, so it’s okay.

 

[114]   Lee Waters: Okay. Just grateful if you could be brief. One is to pick up on Emma Archers’s point about delivery models. We’ve heard evidence about the hub model in England. We’ve heard evidence that maybe the regional consortia here would be a more appropriate model in Wales. Can you give us your view on the most suitable delivery model to advance this agenda?

 

[115]   Mr Evans: I think that there is a certain—. We need to look—. I think that work needs to be undertaken in terms of, I think as Emma said, economies of scale. It’s certainly an issue. I would have no issue, personally, with looking at the regional model and then having, you know, the understanding then that it meets the needs of the pupils and the schools of Neath Port Talbot, as we have currently with the school improvement model. That works well for us, so I would certainly be open to a discussion around that.

 

[116]   Lee Waters: You’d be more inclined towards that rather than the hub model, would you?

 

[117]   Mr Evans: Yes.

 

[118]   Lee Waters: Right, okay. Thank you. If anyone disagrees, please say it, but I think we’d better move on.

 

[119]   Dr Llywelyn: Yes, I think that, as with a number of similar services, because circumstances vary, I suspect that there isn’t one particular model that will fit all situations. I think that different approaches are needed, depending on the prevailing circumstances, which, I know, is an imperfect answer and is—

 

[120]   Lee Waters: The trouble is, it’s the extant position, and that’s allowed this situation to develop, hasn’t it?

 

[121]   Dr Llywelyn: No, I know, and if we look at other service areas as well, generally, the imposition of a top-down centralised approach doesn’t necessarily work in these situations. Whatever the solution is, I think it needs to be sensitive to the local circumstances and, you know, the existing arrangements, the historical legacy, if you like, and the funding circumstances as well, because all of those things will vary across Wales.

 

[122]   Ms Archer: I suppose that the practical difficulties are getting staff on to harmonising terms and conditions of working. I think that a regional model of working would have a lot of benefits in terms of spreading staff and making sure that they’ve got the right number of hours for their contract. Over a larger geographical area, that makes perfect sense, and that, to be honest, is the reason that we’ve managed to absorb just over £1 million-worth of cuts since 2012 without having to have more impact on our pupils, because we’ve been able to utilise our staff, as demand has dictated, and that is why other services that are working in smaller regions are finding that the impact of the cuts is more challenging. But I think that the five-year plan would be necessary because, obviously, it would take quite a piece of work to take people from where they are now

 

[123]   Lee Waters: Sure. But, to clarify, you think that adopting one model could work.

 

[124]   Ms Archer: I think that working on a regional basis, linked in with the education consortia, would be a very good way of working.

 

[125]   Lee Waters: Thank you very much. Just one final question—

 

[126]   Mr Evans: Sorry, Lee, I don’t disagree with what Emma has said for one moment, but I think we need to be careful that we are not scaling up what, arguably, is a poorly funded model locally into a poorly funded model regionally. I think that we just need to be mindful of that.

 

[127]   Lee Waters: That’s a fair point. Okay. Just a final question from me about funding for the ensembles. National Youth Arts Wales has been set up with what is, to my mind, a very precarious financial model. That model is predicated on £270,000 being made available from local authorities for the coming year. Are you able to anticipate what might happen in future years?

 

[128]   Dr Llewelyn: In future years, the authorities have said that they think it’s not affordable—the figures that were quoted earlier. As I mentioned earlier, the ensembles in other parts of the UK are funded primarily by central Government, but what is evident as well is that more effective use is made of other sources of funding. So, there’s a greater focus on commercial opportunities of getting sponsorship and so on. The creation of an endowment is one. There is, I think, evidence that former pupils, especially the more affluent, find it easier to put money into an endowment than—

 

[129]   Lee Waters: I understand that, but £270,000 is an awfully big gap to make up.

 

[130]   Dr Llewelyn: It is, I agree. It is a big gap. The last time we discussed this issue with the 22 authorities, their view was that they could provide funding in the short term but that it wasn’t sustainable into the future.

 

[131]   Lee Waters: And is the short term defined as just one year, or is there wiggle room?

 

[132]   Dr Llewelyn: At the time of the decision, the funding was already extended for a further year beyond the initial decision. In this instance, as I understand it, I think approaches will be made to individual authorities, possibly, but the collective agreement, as it were, is not to continue funding.

 

[133]   Lee Waters: Just briefly on the endowment that was announced yesterday, are you clear on how that will work, and do you think it will be effective?

 

[134]   Dr Llewelyn: In terms of the detail, I’m not clear at the moment. I think the principle of an endowment is a good thing, and it is the right way forward, but I think, as everybody knows, the difficulty with an endowment is that you need an incredibly large pot of money to have a significant impact, but you need to start somewhere. The shame is that this wasn’t something that was started some time ago. I think, in terms of the national ensembles, it has significant potential. Already, we’ve spoken today about learners from deprived areas—an endowment does provide potential for scholarships. But, as I say, it is a commitment in the long term. It will take some time until it delivers a deal that is significant enough to probably meet the demand. But I think it’s the right thing to do.

 

[135]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.

 

[136]   Bethan Jenkins: We’re going to have to finish quickly, but Emma wants to come in on this now.

 

[137]   Ms Archer: Just one thing on the gap of funding between the top level of the regional ensembles, the county groups and the national groups, obviously one of the impacts of the cuts that have happened over the last four years is that we are now charging at that level. So, whereas I agree that perhaps funding of the national ensembles for local authorities may not be a priority in the future, I think it needs to be acknowledged that once we start charging at that reginal level, that, in turn, will have a further impact on the national ensembles. So, if we could redress that, and we could get to a point where our regional ensembles were all free of charge again, then that would have an added benefit to the children then going on to have places in the national ensembles, because they wouldn’t be having to find money for both, which, moving forward, they in all possibility will have to do.

 

[138]   Bethan Jenkins: Yn anffodus, nid oes mwy o amser gyda ni ar y sesiwn yma. Os oes unrhyw awgrymiadau ychwanegol gyda chi o ran syniadau i’r dyfodol, sut i fynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa yma, plîs e-bostiwch ni neu cysylltwch â ni.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Unfortunately, we don’t have any time left on this session. If you have any additional suggestions in terms of ideas for the future and how to tackle this situation, please e-mail us or contact us in another way.

[139]   Rydym ni’n mynd i gael brêc nawr tan 10.20 a.m., a dod nôl am y sesiwn nesaf. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

We’re going to have a break now until 10.20 a.m., and we’ll come back for the next session. Thank you very much.

 

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:11 a 10:21.
The meeting adjourned between 10:11 and 10:21.

 

Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 8
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 8

[140]   Bethan Jenkins: Helo a diolch. Rydym ni’n symud at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, sef ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a mynediad ati. Y tystion sydd gyda ni heddiw yw Peter Bellingham, cyfarwyddwr pontio ymgynghorol Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru, ac Anwen Fflur Jones, sef cyd-gadeirydd Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru. Croeso ichi yma heddiw ac rydw i’n siŵr eich bod chi wedi gweld yr hyn rydym ni wedi bod yn ei drafod fel pwyllgor. Nid wyf i’n siŵr os yw’r cyfieithu’n gweithio ar hyn o bryd.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Hello and thank you. We will move on now to item 3 on the agenda, which is funding for and access to music education. The witnesses with us today are Peter Bellingham, consultant transition director, National Youth Arts Wales, and Anwen Fflur Jones, co-chair, National Youth Arts Wales. Welcome here today, and I’m sure you’ve seen what we’ve been discussing as a committee. I’m not sure whether the interpretation is working at present.

 

[141]   Mr Bellingham: Oh, this one here. Sorry.

 

[142]   Bethan Jenkins: A ydy e’n gweithio nawr?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Is it working now?

[143]   Mr Bellingham: Yes, thank you.

 

[144]   Bethan Jenkins: Yr oll roeddwn i’n ei ddweud oedd ‘croeso’. So, croeso ichi yma heddiw.

 

Bethan Jenkins: All I was saying was ‘welcome’. So, welcome here today.

[145]   Tybed a fedrwch chi, yn y lle cyntaf, roi cefndir o ran y sefydliad newydd? Y cwestiwn penodol sydd gen i yw: yn eich tystiolaeth, ym mhwynt 4, rydych chi’n dweud y gwnaethoch chi ddod i’r penderfyniad—wel, roedd y penderfyniad wedi cael ei wneud—i sefydlu cwmni newydd yn hytrach na’r opsiynau eraill ac mae yna resymeg digon clir ym mhwynt 5 ynglŷn â pham roedd hynny wedi cael ei ddewis. Ond nid wyf i’n gweld o’r dystiolaeth os oedd unrhyw fath o ymchwil yn sail i pam wnaethoch chi, neu bwy bynnag oedd wedi gwneud y penderfyniad i ddechrau cwmni newydd yn hytrach na’r opsiynau eraill. Dyna oedd y peth cyntaf a oedd wedi neidio i’m meddwl i gyda sefydlu’r cwmni newydd. Felly, os medrwch chi roi cefndir sut y gwnaeth e ddigwydd a pham yn benodol yr oedd yr opsiwn yna wedi cael ei ddewis. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

 

I wonder if, in the first place, you could provide us with the background in terms of the new organisation. The specific question that I have is: in your evidence, in point 4, you say that you came to the decision—or the decision was made—to establish a new company, rather than the other options, and there are clear reasons in point 5 in terms of why that decision was made. But I don’t see from the evidence whether any research was the basis of why whoever made the decision made the decision to start a new company rather than the other options. That was the first thing that jumped into my mind with the establishment of the new company. So, if you could provide a background of how that happened and why that option was chosen. Thank you very much.

[146]   Ms Jones: Diolch. Wel, diolch am y croeso ac am y cynnig i fod yma heddiw. O ran y cefndir, fel mae’r nodyn yn dweud, roedd yna bwyllgor ymgynghorol wedi ei roi at ei gilydd er mwyn edrych ar y gwahanol opsiynau yma. O safbwynt edrych yn ôl ac wedyn trio edrych ymlaen, y teimlad oedd, o fewn y pwyllgor ymgynghorol fel yr oedd o ar yr adeg honno—a oedd wedi cael ei ofyn i gael ei sefydlu gan CBAC—oedd bod yna broblemau o safbwynt codi arian ar wahân i’r arian cyhoeddus a oedd ar gael ac, efallai, oherwydd bod CBAC yn draddodiadol, wrth gwrs, yn cael ei gysylltu â bwrdd arholi—wel, fel bwrdd arholi—ei fod o efallai’n gamarweiniol o safbwynt y cyfleoedd a oedd ar gael i godi arian annibynnol. Felly, roedd hynny’n un ffactor reit bwysig. Roeddem ni hefyd yn gweld efallai ei fod o’n amser i gael clean break, os liciwch chi, i ddechrau o’r newydd, oherwydd cyd-destun y ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gofyn i’r adroddiad gael ei roi at ei gilydd oedd oherwydd bod y llywodraethau lleol wedi penderfynu nad oedden nhw am gyllido’r cynllun llawer ymhellach.

 

Ms Jones: Well, thank you for the welcome and the invitation to be here today. In relation to the background, as the note states, there was a consultation committee put together to look at the different options. In relation to looking back at the past and looking forward, the feeling within that consultation committee, which is what it was at that time—and we had been asked to establish that committee by the WJEC—was that there were problems in relation to fundraising, distinct from the public money that was available, and possibly because WJEC traditionally, of course, was linked with an examination board—well, seen as an examination board—perhaps it was misleading in relation to the opportunities available to fundraise on an independent basis. So, that was an important factor. We also felt that perhaps it was time to have a clean break, if you like, to start from the very beginning, once again, because the context of the fact that the Welsh Government had asked for the report to be put together was because local government had decided that they didn’t want to fund the scheme for very much longer.

 

[147]   Felly, o gofio hynny i gyd, roeddem ni hefyd yn teimlo ei fod o’n gyfle i greu mudiad newydd a chynaliadwy i warchod y celfyddydau’n genedlaethol a’i fod o’n rhywbeth a ddylai sefyll ar ei draed ei hun. Hefyd, roeddem ni’n gweld, drwy fod yn gorff annibynnol, ac roedd hwn yn rhan fawr o’r drafodaeth, fod cyfleoedd i gydweithio mewn partneriaethau efo mudiadau cenedlaethol eraill, achos mae yna sawl mudiad cenedlaethol—ac rydym i gyd yn falch iawn ohonyn nhw—sydd â llawer iawn o gyfleoedd y gallwn ni fanteisio arnyn nhw. Ond roeddem ni’n gweld y byddai’n bosib i ni wneud hynny yn llawer iawn mwy effeithiol drwy fod yn gorff annibynnol yn sefyll ar ei draed ei hun.

 

So, remembering that, we also felt it was an opportunity to create a new organisation, a sustainable organisation, to protect the arts on a national basis and that it was something that should be independent. Also, we felt that, in being an independent body, and this was a big part of the discussion, that the opportunities to collaborate in partnerships with other national organisations would be there, because there are several national organisations—and we’re all very proud of them—which offer great opportunities that we could take advantage of. We thought that that could be done much more effectively if we were an independent body.

[148]   Bethan Jenkins: Onid ydych yn gweld bod tensiynau efallai yn mynd i agor, oherwydd bod, er enghraifft, Tŷ Cerdd, ar hyn o bryd, yn gyfrifol am rai o’r ensemblau a CBAC yn gyfrifol am rai eraill, ac wedyn ceisio penderfynu sut y bydd hynny’n gweithio yn y dyfodol? Onid ydych yn gweld y bydd hynny efallai yn agor y drws i densiynau yn y dyfodol?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Do you not see that there are tensions that can arise, because Tŷ Cerdd, at present, is responsible for part of the ensembles, and the WJEC is responsible for another part, and then trying to decide how that works in the future. Don’t you see that that might open the door to tensions in the future?

[149]   Ms Jones: Wel, nac ydw, a dweud y gwir, achos yr holl bwrpas ydy bod CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd yn mynd i fod yn delifro’r rhaglen ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf yma, ond wedi hynny, y bwriad ydy llinell yn y swnd a chychwyn eto. Ac rwy’n meddwl bod llawer iawn mwy o gyfleoedd yn mynd i godi na thensiynau. Mae Tŷ Cerdd wedi bod yn gwneud y gwaith gan gydweithio’n reit agos efo CBAC, felly nid wyf yn rhagweld y bydd hynny’n broblem.

 

Ms Jones: Well, no, to be honest, because the whole point is that WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd are going to be delivering a programme for this coming year, but after that, the intention is that we draw a line in the sand and start again. And I think there’ll be far more opportunities arising than tensions. Tŷ Cerdd has been doing this work and working very closely with the WJEC, so I don’t foresee that that would be a problem.

[150]   Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Diolch. Peter?

Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Thanks. Peter?

 

[151]   Do you have any initial comments?

 

[152]   Unrhyw sylwadau cychwynnol?

 

Any initial comments?

[153]   Mr Bellingham: In respect of the tensions, I think that, certainly, they will probably be there in the people who are working for those organisations at the moment. But I think it is important that we get the most efficient ensembles for the benefit of the young people, the most talented young musicians and singers, dancers, actors, and that should be our focus. And if that means that it requires change to achieve that, I think that’s the right way forward, particularly in the context of a fragmenting music service.

 

[154]   Bethan Jenkins: Thanks. Jeremy Miles.

 

[155]   Jeremy Miles: If I was a member of the national ensembles, how would I—? What impact would the new organisational arrangements have on me?

 

[156]   Mr Bellingham: I think the positive impacts would be that I’m sure there’s an opportunity to harmonise the audition process. At the moment, if say you were a flute player, a flautist, you would audition for the national wind orchestra, and you would audition for the national youth orchestra, and that process would be both separate and different. I think that, in terms of working more extensively in partnership with other organisations, particularly some of the national companies, that will bring an additional level of expertise and artistic leadership opportunity that the young people will benefit from. I think that one thing that we need to do is to look at the level below the top of the pyramid. In music, it’s a very clear progression route through that pyramid, and the fragmentation is going to disrupt that pyramid at some point, if it’s not already doing so.

 

[157]   In order to protect the ability of the national youth music ensembles to attract the best players, and to have a flow of best players, I think we need to work more closely with other providers, music service providers and others, to have a stronger development programme at the next step down, so that we can encourage and inspire and support, technically and musically, those people who may not yet see themselves as having the potential to get into the national groups, but perhaps could do with more encouragement. And, of course, that’s something that costs money to provide, and we will need to see, within the context of our own draft budgets, how we can make things like that work.

 

[158]         Jeremy Miles: I’m not clear about what it is about the new structure that enables you to do things, if you like, that weren’t available to you under the previous structure.

 

10:30

 

[159]   Mr Bellingham: Well, firstly, it’s a single organisation, which I think will help. It will have a single focused mission, and a single artistic vision. Although the delivery at the moment is from WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd, you can draw a line between the delivery of those two organisations, and I think it would be true to say that Tŷ Cerdd organised their ensembles in their way, and WJEC organised, in this case the orchestra, but they also provide the dance and the theatre, in their way. It’s, I think, quite probable that that’s not necessarily the most efficient way.

 

[160]   Jeremy Miles: It seems to me that it probably isn’t on a common sense basis. But, actually, they’re going to continue to deliver on the ground, aren’t they?

 

[161]   Mr Bellingham: Not necessarily, no.

 

[162]   Jeremy Miles: Ocê. Jest cwestiwn i chi, Anwen. Mae cael dau gadeirydd i’r bwrdd yn strwythur, o ran rheoleiddio, eithaf lletchwith. Beth oedd y syniad y tu ôl i hynny?

 

Jeremy Miles: Okay. Just a question for you then, Anwen. Having two chairs for the board is quite an awkward management structure. What was the idea behind that?

[163]   Ms Jones: Wel, dim ond trefniant dros dro yw e, o safbwynt Christine Lewis oedd y cadeirydd, ond yn anffodus mae hi wedi mynd i Seland Newydd am gyfnod dros y gaeaf, felly fe wnes i gytuno i gamu i’r bwlch, os liciwch chi, ar yr amod ei bod hi’n dod yn ôl ac yn cymryd y gadeiryddiaeth drosodd. Felly, rydym yn cyd-gadeirio yn ei habsenoldeb hi, os liciwch chi. Felly, rydw i’n ymddwyn fel cadeirydd yn ei habsenoldeb hi, ond fe fydd hi yn ôl ddiwedd mis Mawrth ac wedyn fe fydd hi yn cymryd y baton ymlaen. Felly, strwythur dros dro ydy hwn.

 

Ms Jones: Well, it’s only a temporary arrangement in that Christine Lewis was the chair, but unfortunately she has gone to New Zealand for a period over the winter, so I agreed to step into the breach, if you like, on the condition that she came back and took the chairmanship back over. So, we are co-chairs in her absence, if you like. So, I operate as chair in her absence, but she is back at the end of March, and then will carry forth the baton. So, it’s a temporary structure.

[164]   Jeremy Miles: Ac rŷch chi’n cymryd penderfyniadau cadeirydd yn llwyr yn ei habsenoldeb hi; nid oes rhannu penderfyniadau.

 

Jeremy Miles: And you’re making the chair’s decisions entirely in her absence; you’re not sharing decisions.

[165]   Ms Jones: Mae hi’n cael ei chadw mewn cysylltiad. Wrth gwrs, mae’r ffaith ei bod hi’n bell i ffwrdd yn golygu ein bod ni mewn cysylltiad drwy Skype ac e-bost, ond mae’r penderfyniadau ar y cyfan wedi dod gennyf i yn ystod y cyfnod ers mis Tachwedd.

 

Ms Jones: She is kept in touch with what’s going on. Of course, the fact that she’s far away means that we keep in touch on Skype and e-mail, but the decisions mainly have come from me during the period since November. 

[166]   Jeremy Miles: Ocê, diolch.

 

Jeremy Miles: Okay, thank you.

[167]   Bethan Jenkins: Dai Lloyd.

 

[168]   Dai Lloyd: Ie, diolch, Gadeirydd. Dim ond yn adeiladu ar yr atebion rydych chi wedi’u cynnig eisoes—ac rwy’n clywed beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud ynglŷn â bod yna gydweithio nawr efo CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd am y flwyddyn nesaf, ac wedyn bydd pethau yn cicio i mewn llawn amser, felly, o flwyddyn nesaf—beth sy’n digwydd i’r dyfodol wedyn, yn y berthynas rhyngoch chi, CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd? Beth yw natur y berthynas yn mynd i fod wedyn, ar ôl y flwyddyn yna?

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Just to build on those responses you’ve already given—and I hear what you say about this collaboration now between WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd for the next year, and then things will kick in on a full-time basis from next year—what happens then in the future in the relationship between yourselves and WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd? What will be the nature of that relationship afterwards, after that year?

[169]   Ms Jones: Wel, mae hynny i’w drafod a dweud y gwir. Fel gallwch chi ei weld, rydym ni mewn cyfnod newydd iawn yn fan hyn. Rydym ni wedi apwyntio Peter fel ymgynghorydd i’n harwain ni drwy’r broses o drosglwyddiad. Yn bendant, nid ydym yn mynd i gau allan y cyfleoedd i gydweithio efo CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd wrth fynd ymlaen. Ond y gwirionedd amdani ydy y bydd yna sefyllfa trosglwyddo TUPE beth bynnag, felly bydd y staff yn trosglwyddo, mwy na thebyg, i ni. Felly, dim ond os byddai ganddyn nhw gyfleoedd y maen nhw eisiau eu rhannu efo ni neu fod ganddyn nhw gyfraniad i’w wneud, fe fyddan nhw’n cael ystyriaeth yr un fath a phob un mudiad cenedlaethol arall. Ond dyna ydy hi i ni hefyd, y ffaith ein bod ni eisiau edrych ar bartneriaethau ehangach.

 

Ms Jones: Well, that’s to be discussed to tell you the truth. As you can see, we’re in a new period here. We have appointed Peter as a consultant to lead us through this transfer process. Certainly, we’re not going to exclude the opportunities to collaborate with WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd as we proceed. But the truth is that there will be a TUPE transfer anyway, so the staff would transfer, more than likely to us. So, it is only if they have opportunities that they want to share with us, or that they have a contribution to make, they will be considered just like every other national body. But, that is what it is for us as well, the fact that we want to look at broader partnerships.

[170]   Dai Lloyd: Oce. Yn y termau yna, mae yna beryg ein bod ni’n mynd i jest fod yn sôn am strwythurau ac ati, ond mae’n bwysig cael y manylion hefyd. Yn nhermau, rŵan, yn naturiol, mae’n amser o newid mawr, ond yn nhermau amserlennu a her amserlennu, a ydych chi’n rhagweld unrhyw effeithiau o ddydd i ddydd ar yr ensemblau cenedlaethol? Achos dyna beth fuaswn i’n pryderu yn ei gylch: beth sy’n digwydd yn y cefndir, a beth sy’n digwydd yn nhermau’r ensemblau eu hunain. A ydych chi’n gallu gweld unrhyw heriau yn yr amserlennu?

 

Dai Lloyd: Okay. In those terms then, there is a risk that we’re just going to be looking at structure, for example, but it is important to have the details also. Of course, naturally, it’s a period of great change, but regarding timetabling and the challenge of that, do you foresee day-to-day effects on the national ensembles? Because that’s what I’m concerned about: what’s happening in the background, and what’s going to happen to the ensembles themselves. Do you see any challenges in the timetabling?

 

[171]   Mr Bellingham: Well, the 2017 programme will be contracted back from the new organisation to WJEC, who will, in turn, contract Tŷ Cerdd to deliver their ensembles.  From 2018 onwards, the programme will be delivered from the new organisation with its new staff structure, and we will then decide which partners to work with, and deliver a programme according to those partnerships.

 

[172]   Dai Lloyd: Great.

 

[173]   Lee Waters: I must say, you’ve gathered together an impressive board of volunteers, and I admire your willingness to step up to this challenge. It is a significant challenge, isn’t it? Can I just first of all clarify, Peter Bellingham, your role? It says that you’re a transition director for an initial period of six months. Is that a full-time commitment for six months?

 

[174]   Mr Bellingham: It’s an average of 15 days a month in consultancy. It’s 90 days of work.

 

[175]   Lee Waters: Right. So, you don’t have anyone full-time doing this role?

 

[176]   Ms Jones: No, not yet. The intention was—looking forward, we will be seeking someone into a full-time position. But the view of the board was that, for this initial transition period, bearing in mind that we are subcontracting the programmes back, for this year, to the WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd, we felt that this was sufficient for this period of time.

 

[177]   Lee Waters: Right. And have you started your fundraising strategy work yet?

 

[178]   Mr Bellingham: We’ve got a fundraiser who’s a consultant fundraiser. She’s been on board since the beginning of January. She’s currently working through what our approach will be and starting to do the research into targets, particularly focused on trusts and foundations. Our expectations are that the fundraising for this year will focus on those trusts and foundations that have as their remit support of organisations in transition, and organisations going through change. And then that will switch, later on this year, to programme-based fundraising.

 

[179]   Lee Waters: Right, because based on your financial assumptions for this year, you have fundraising income of £82,500 identified, and from next year you have £115,000—

 

[180]   Mr Bellingham: Yes.

 

[181]   Lee Waters: That seems to me an ambitious assumption, given the resource you have dedicated to it, and how difficult a field this is in which to raise funds.

 

[182]   Mr Bellingham: I think that this year’s target is not particularly ambitious. That’s not to say it won’t be challenging, but I think it’s achievable, and I think that it’s a reasonable assumption that we could raise £115,000 in 2018-19. However, what we will need to do is keep our eye on how that fundraising is moving against target, and if necessary adjust the budget accordingly, which clearly would have an impact on output or overhead expenditure. But we will be monitoring the income and the expenditure very closely in order to make sure that as an organisation that we keep within the known resources.

 

[183]   Lee Waters: But you also have an assumption for the next financial year of public sector funding of £100,000. Now, we’ve just heard from the Welsh Local Government Association that the £270,000 that has been made available this year is not assumed to be available next year. However, that’s not to say that you can’t approach individual local authorities. So, is that £100,000 based on passing the begging bowl round local authorities?

 

[184]   Mr Bellingham: It is essentially local authority fundraising. Currently, Gareth Pierce at WJEC is approaching local authorities with a view to funding the 2017 programme, and the Arts Council of Wales are having a more strategic conversation with the local authorities about future funding. So, at the moment, my role in the organisation is not to get involved in that, but at some point National Youth Arts Wales will take over that conversation, hopefully following a positive discussion between the local authorities and the arts council.

 

[185]   Lee Waters: Right. May I just say I have very real concerns reading—? Obviously, we don’t have a financial plan, but from the information you’ve given us, and, I think, some understanding of the environment that you’re operating within—. Without a full-time director, with a consultant fundraiser and an impressive but small board of very busy people, against a backdrop of a clear messag"MsoListParagraph" style= 'margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm'>[171]   Mr Bellingham: Well, the 2017 programme will be contracted back from the new organisation to WJEC, who will, in turn, contract Tŷ Cerdd to deliver their ensembles.  From 2018 onwards, the programme will be delivered from the new organisation with its new staff structure, and we will then decide which partners to work with, and deliver a programme according to those partnerships.

 

[172]   Dai Lloyd: Great.

 

[173]   Lee Waters: I must say, you’ve gathered together an impressive board of volunteers, and I admire your willingness to step up to this challenge. It is a significant challenge, isn’t it? Can I just first of all clarify, Peter Bellingham, your role? It says that you’re a transition director for an initial period of six months. Is that a full-time commitment for six months?

 

[174]   Mr Bellingham: It’s an average of 15 days a month in consultancy. It’s 90 days of work.

 

[175]   Lee Waters: Right. So, you don’t have anyone full-time doing this role?

 

[176]   Ms Jones: No, not yet. The intention was—looking forward, we will be seeking someone into a full-time position. But the view of the board was that, for this initial transition period, bearing in mind that we are subcontracting the programmes back, for this year, to the WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd, we felt that this was sufficient for this period of time.

 

[177]   Lee Waters: Right. And have you started your fundraising strategy work yet?

 

[178]   Mr Bellingham: We’ve got a fundraiser who’s a consultant fundraiser. She’s been on board since the beginning of January. She’s currently working through what our approach will be and starting to do the research into targets, particularly focused on trusts and foundations. Our expectations are that the fundraising for this year will focus on those trusts and foundations that have as their remit support of organisations in transition, and organisations going through change. And then that will switch, later on this year, to programme-based fundraising.

 

[179]   Lee Waters: Right, because based on your financial assumptions for this year, you have fundraising income of £82,500 identified, and from next year you have £115,000—

 

[180]   Mr Bellingham: Yes.

 

[181]   Lee Waters: That seems to me an ambitious assumption, given the resource you have dedicated to it, and how difficult a field this is in which to raise funds.

 

[182]   Mr Bellingham: I think that this year’s target is not particularly ambitious. That’s not to say it won’t be challenging, but I think it’s achievable, and I think that it’s a reasonable assumption that we could raise £115,000 in 2018-19. However, what we will need to do is keep our eye on how that fundraising is moving against target, and if necessary adjust the budget accordingly, which clearly would have an impact on output or overhead expenditure. But we will be monitoring the income and the expenditure very closely in order to make sure that as an organisation that we keep within the known resources.

 

[183]   Lee Waters: But you also have an assumption for the next financial year of public sector funding of £100,000. Now, we’ve just heard from the Welsh Local Government Association that the £270,000 that has been made available this year is not assumed to be available next year. However, that’s not to say that you can’t approach individual local authorities. So, is that £100,000 based on passing the begging bowl round local authorities?

 

[184]   Mr Bellingham: It is essentially local authority fundraising. Currently, Gareth Pierce at WJEC is approaching local authorities with a view to funding the 2017 programme, and the Arts Council of Wales are having a more strategic conversation with the local authorities about future funding. So, at the moment, my role in the organisation is not to get involved in that, but at some point National Youth Arts Wales will take over that conversation, hopefully following a positive discussion between the local authorities and the arts council.

 

[185]   Lee Waters: Right. May I just say I have very real concerns reading—? Obviously, we don’t have a financial plan, but from the information you’ve given us, and, I think, some understanding of the environment that you’re operating within—. Without a full-time director, with a consultant fundraiser and an impressive but small board of very busy people, against a backdrop of a clear message from your traditional funders that that funding is not going to continue, even with your statement that activity is going to mean that the new organisation will have to manage with less funding than previously—even assuming that, it does seem to me that there are some enormous challenges ahead of you that I’m not entirely sure you’re equipped to meet.

 

[186]   Mr Bellingham: I think that we are equipped to meet those challenges and I also agree that they are large challenges. But we’ve got a very experienced fundraiser. At some point we will go from consultant fundraiser to an in-house, full-time fundraiser, but we have to choose the right moment. Currently, we feel that the approach is best taken by a consultant approach focusing on very specific trusts and foundations to get some, if you like, quick wins, and laying down a strategic approach for a salaried fundraiser to come in and work to. But those challenges are certainly there; we don’t disagree with that. And we do have a financial plan, by the way. The extracts that we’ve provided are part of a detailed budget that went to the arts council in order for—

 

[187]   Lee Waters: Is it possible to share that with us?

 

[188]   Mr Bellingham: Yes.

 

[189]   Lee Waters: Thank you.

 

[190]   Mr Bellingham: We will also keep an eye on that, and part of my role will be to decide whether that financial plan is the right one going forward. And these things are timetabled in a very detailed milestone plan for the duration of my consultancy.

 

[191]   Ms Jones: Rhaid inni gofio hefyd ein bod ni’n gorfod gweithio ar hyn o bryd o fewn swm yr arian sydd gennym ni ar gyfer y broses drosglwyddo, felly rydym yn weddol gaeth o safbwynt faint o arian rydym yn gallu ei wario ar wahanol swyddi ac ati. Felly, mae’n rhaid cofio’r cyd-destun hwnnw. A hefyd jest i ddweud bod yna hysbyseb yn mynd allan ar gyfer mwy o aelodau i’r bwrdd yn y dyddiau nesaf yma. Felly, rydym yn ymwybodol ein bod ni’n griw bach—criw bach sydd yn frwd iawn ac yn dymuno gweld llwyddiant—ond rydym hefyd yn sylweddoli ein bod ni angen mwy o sgiliau, yn arbennig sgiliau o safbwynt y byd creadigol, i ymuno efo ni ar gyfer edrych ar y rhaglen ar gyfer flwyddyn nesaf. 

 

Ms Jones: We also need to remember that we have to work at the moment within the sum of money we have for this transition process, so we’re quite limited in relation to how much we can spend on various posts, for example. So, we do have to remember that context. And also just to say that an advert is being placed for more board members within the next few days. So, we are aware that we’re a very small group—a very enthusiastic group that wishes to see success—but we also realise that we do need more skills, especially skills in relation to the creative world, to join us in order to look at the programme for next year.

 

[192]   Lee Waters: I’m not questioning at all the skills of the people you have. Indeed, Peter Bellingham’s track record—. You’re doing all that you can do. I’m just worried about the context you’re operating within and the assumptions that you have, given the context that you’re facing. Without having seen the financial plan, beyond the fundraiser working and specific targets, what other plans do you have to raise funds, because, obviously, you need to keep doing this year upon year, don’t you, which is a real ask?

 

[193]   Mr Bellingham: The fundraising will come from the fundraiser. There’s nothing beyond that in the plan.

 

[194]   Lee Waters: But you’re not just going to funding organisations; you have a more diverse fundraising strategy than that.

 

[195]   Mr Bellingham: Initially, the focus will be on trusts and foundations. That will then be followed almost certainly by individual giving, which is a different strategy, different focus, and we need to see what resources are available in terms of what contacts the current organisations already have before we can properly build that strategy. I think there will be a limited amount of corporate fundraising, because corporate fundraising is a very small part of the fundraising sector, particularly in Wales. So, the focus will mainly be on trusts and foundations, followed by individuals, and then separate to that, away from the fundraiser, we’ll be following through the local authority route.

 

[196]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.

 

[197]   Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy again.

 

[198]   Jeremy Miles: Can I just go back to the line of questioning that Dai Lloyd was pursuing with you about the future relationships and the delivery on the ground, which we touched on in our discussion as well? And you mentioned that there will be other options, effectively, rather than using Tŷ Cerdd and using the WJEC, and there were TUPE implications and so on. What was the pool of available alternative providers?

 

[199]   Mr Bellingham: The staff team for delivery will sit within the new organisation, and the transfer date for that is the end of September. So, the logistics and delivery of resources of staff will be from the staff team, but working to a greater extent, I think, in partnership with some of the other, particularly the national, companies within Wales, but quite possibly other organisations as well.

 

10:45

 

[200]   Jeremy Miles: Okay. And we heard from the WJEC when they gave evidence—I think I’m right in saying from recollection—that at least for this year and perhaps previously, they have effectively been providing services in kind, if you like, which have not been paid for but they are quantifiable. I can’t quite remember what value they placed on them.

 

[201]   Lee Waters: It was £70,000.

 

[202]   Jeremy Miles: Thank you. What’s your expectation of that sort of value going forward?

 

[203]   Mr Bellingham: I think, if I understand it correctly, that, in previous years, has been an internal recharge and that, this year, WJEC have offered, very generously, to absorb those costs. I think we can make sure that our overhead costs are lower than that, as a very small organisation working with a limited need for office space and facilities.

 

[204]   Jeremy Miles: So, that isn’t really a vulnerability, if you like, in the future. You can manage that—

 

[205]   Mr Bellingham: I don’t believe so.

 

[206]   Ms Jones: We also hope and expect that the fact that it’s going to be a streamlined organisation with its own fundraising capability will mean that it will be an attractive proposition for those fundraisers, so that the £70,000 in kind that you mentioned—you know, that we will hopefully be in a position to beat that in terms of our own individual fundraising.

 

[207]   Neil Hamilton: Can I just ask—[Inaudible.]—together? What’s your target?

 

[208]   Mr Bellingham: In 2017-18 it’s £82,500.

 

[209]   Neil Hamilton: That’s all.

 

[210]   Mr Bellingham: In 2018-19 it’s £115,000. We believe that it’s possible—and this was a guide amount in the fundraising report that was part of the task and finish group report—that it should be possible to target £300,000 as an annual amount. I think that it will take at least three years, possibly four years, to get to that amount. So, our budget, for example, for—

 

[211]   Neil Hamilton: That’s 10p a head for everybody in Wales.

 

[212]   Bethan Jenkins: It’ll take you three years to get to the point where you can raise £300,000 a year or it’ll take you up to that point to be able to raise £300,000?

 

[213]   Mr Bellingham: No, I think it will take us at least three years before we can raise £300,000 every year.

 

[214]   Bethan Jenkins: Every year. Neil, did you want to come back on this?

 

[215]   Neil Hamilton: I’ve just, throughout this inquiry, been struck by the modesty of the figures that we’re talking about and the amount of effort that is going into arguing the case on the part of those who don’t want to provide this trivial amount of money. So, the mountains are in labour, aren’t they, to quote the Latin poet? I just find it incredible that, for a national, essential requirement of this kind that we’re having to go through this exercise at all.

 

[216]   Mr Bellingham: I’ve provided, for context, the amounts that are spent in England and Scotland for similar—not the same; there are actually six ensembles here in Wales—but the similar ones that I could see being publicly funded by Creative Scotland and the Arts Council England, and they are clearly, obviously, significantly higher. But we have to work with the money that’s available to us and make our case as persuasively as possible. I think, in a sense, going back to the fundraising, there is a very powerful story to be told about the development of talent and the most talented musicians and singers and actors and dancers.

 

[217]   Bethan Jenkins: Not that I want to give over all my salary as well, but are you utilising the alumni at all? I’ve never been asked, as an alumni, for anything.

 

[218]   Lee Waters: [Inaudible.] [Laughter.]

 

[219]   Ms Jones: That’s something that certainly we should be doing more of and I don’t think traditionally has been happening. But if you look on their website, you have an illustrious list of people who have benefitted from the experience they’ve had, and there’s a huge, huge fountain there that we should be looking at, for sure.

 

[220]   Bethan Jenkins: I agree. Suzy.

 

[221]   Suzy Davies: You mentioned that there is a powerful story to be told for the talent that’s available here, but that’s got to be true of other parts of the UK as well. The competition, through philanthropic sources, particularly in England as a result of their White Paper on the arts about a year ago, means that there’s going to be tremendous pressure on these sources. What are you going to be able to say that actually gets NYAW’s argument over the line? What’s the unique selling point that you are going to be able to press on? In no way do I diminish the talent in Wales when I ask that question.

 

[222]   Mr Bellingham: I think that, to be perfectly honest, it’s not necessarily just about a unique selling point. It’s making a wholesome and persuasive case, and that’s what skilled fundraisers are good at doing. They understand the other side of the table. So, if you go into a particular trust, they do a considerable amount of research about that trust, where their focus is, and what they want to see delivered back for their funding. And you construct a case on an individual basis. I think that we do have the persuasiveness of developing talented young people, but we have to make that case on a case-by-case basis for each application.

 

[223]   Suzy Davies: Okay, thanks. I’m sure you will get some questions on this later, but I just want to carve it out slightly. Part of the purpose of restructuring is to actually have a cheaper structure, isn’t it, so that when you have a pot of money, less of it is eaten up by the organisation itself. As I say, you will probably get some questions about that, but have you got any sense at this stage about—? On your projected target of the amount of money you want to raise, how much of that is likely to be taken up with regular costs—not the set-up costs, but the year-on-year costs? Could you just give me a rough idea?

 

[224]   Mr Bellingham: I think it’s—

 

[225]   Suzy Davies: You are going to be asked this later, but—

 

[226]   Mr Bellingham: It’s not necessarily the right focus for that question, if I may. But in 2018-19, the programme costs are listed in the budget as £415,000 and the overhead costs—admin services and overheads—is £48,000. The salary costs are in the budget at £240,000. In terms of the fundraising and its relationship specifically to overheads, I don’t think it’s a question of fundraising paying for overheads.

 

[227]   Suzy Davies: No, I’m thinking of your pot.

 

[228]   Mr Bellingham: It’s one of the income streams.

 

[229]   Suzy Davies: I’m thinking of the whole pot, so that’s okay. The reason why I asked those questions is: what is going to happen if this model fails?

 

[230]   Ms Jones: Well, it was made very clear to us that, if something didn’t happen along these lines—obviously, we had those four options that you have seen in the paper—it was going to fail anyway. So, we have to do something. We have to try. If it all fails, then it will be a very sad day for this nation. I haven’t got a looking glass, unfortunately, but we are passionate about trying to make this work.

 

[231]   Suzy Davies: I don’t dispute that.

 

[232]   Ms Jones: That’s the best I can give at this moment in time.

 

[233]   Suzy Davies: One of the sources of income, of course, would be fees. There has been work about standardising fees and so forth. Do you recognise that there might be a tipping point for the young people of Wales generally, but very specifically for those from lower income backgrounds? It’s obviously an ambition to make sure those young people are included in this.

 

[234]   Mr Bellingham: Yes, definitely. I think that one of the things that we have to try and achieve—and we don’t yet have a plan for how this would be done, but it is a conversation for a little bit further down the line—is how can we create a larger bursary fund within the organisation in order to make sure that everyone does have access to these provisions of the ensembles, and—

 

[235]   Suzy Davies: Are you worried that the endowment announcement yesterday might actually prove to be competition for that?

 

[236]   Mr Bellingham: It may prove to be competition. It may also be an opportunity, although it is going to be some time before that endowment releases any real sense of grant income. But that, again, has to be part of our fundraising case, to find the individuals, trusts and foundations that, collectively, can combine to create what would hopefully be a growing bursary fund. It is important that we don’t price out people who can’t afford to go to these residencies but who should be there by right of their talent. It’s equally important that we get the balance right, so that those who can afford to pay are paying an appropriate amount for the residential services.

 

[237]   Ms Jones: And also, a greater risk, if anything, is the fact that music services are being fragmented across the country anyway. So, if you don’t have the right structures in place for these people to feed into what NYAW is able to offer, then that poses a massive problem.

 

[238]   Suzy Davies: I think we’ve heard that loud and clear. Just one final question, Chair. Bearing in mind what we’ve just said about young people who might miss out—for financial or for other reasons, actually; it might just be rural or geographical isolation, if you like—will there be any capacity within the new organisation to actually proactively go out and talent spot, if I can put it like that? Perhaps I’m oversimplifying that, but thinking, ‘Actually, we haven’t heard much from north Carmarthenshire for a long time, I wonder if we’re missing somebody.’

 

[239]   Mr Bellingham: I think that that is aligned to our view that we should be developing people who are not yet at the level. One of the problems, quite often, is people’s own aspiration and confidence that they might not be able to achieve a certain goal. We know what the goal is, and it’s very measurable in music, for the national orchestra and for the other ensembles. So, I think we can both talent spot, I guess, on not so much an individual basis, but by being aware of what’s happening in the regional networks. I’m sure that is already the case with the current setup, but I think there is more that we could do to support and develop that next level, to ensure that there is a flow of the right quality and skilled musicians in the future.

 

[240]   Suzy Davies: I’m just wondering how that might look, because if a young person’s got the misfortune to go to a school where the head doesn’t think it’s particularly important—. Whether there’s a way in through the regional consortia to identify—well, it would be individuals, I think, who might be missing out in this way.

 

[241]   Mr Bellingham: I think you have to identify the individuals at a slightly lower level in the pyramid—

 

[242]   Suzy Davies: Oh, yes, definitely.

 

[243]   Mr Bellingham: What people will most benefit from, in terms of the step before being able to join the national youth orchestra, the brass band, the choir or the wind orchestra is the opportunity to play at a high level in an ensemble context and an opportunity to learn from the best tutors and to get that practical, technical and musical advice to equip them for their audition next year or the year after.

 

[244]   Suzy Davies: All right. I think it sounds like quite a step, that bit, but thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

 

[245]   Bethan Jenkins: I just wanted to go back to the endowment announcement yesterday and just to be a bit of a devil’s advocate, really. The Minister said that she was setting up a steering group through the arts council for administering this endowment. Do you think that’s the right way to go, or have you had conversations with her with regard to you being the body to facilitate that? Because my gut reaction was that the arts council actually don’t have the expertise in-house; they commission that out to Tŷ Cerdd and WJEC at the moment. So, setting up a separate steering group within the arts council may be missing the point. So, that’s my first question. And then whether you think that, potentially, it’s putting the cart before the horse: would it not have been better to put the money in to you first and then the endowment, or both at the same time? But, of course, finances are tight. I don’t whether you have views on that or whether you’re willing to put them on record, but just to hear what you have in terms of those general issues with the endowment fund.

 

[246]   Mr Bellingham: Well, I don’t have views that represent the organisation, but I think it would be a very narrow focus, nice as it would be for National Youth Arts Wales if that fund was only routed through National Youth Arts Wales. If the Government’s intention is to have a wider distribution of the financial benefits of that endowment, then it probably is best that it’s not placed with a single delivery organisation.

 

[247]   Ms Jones: I agree, and, certainly, it’s not something that we’ve discussed, because the announcement came only—it was last week, wasn’t it? So—

 

[248]   Bethan Jenkins: So you weren’t contacted and you’ve had no conversation with the Government about it on any level.

 

[249]   Ms Jones: No.

 

[250]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Do you want to come in? Jeremy.

 

11:00

 

[251]   Jeremy Miles: Can I just come back to the figures that you quoted in terms of the operating costs generally? I think you said something of the order of £450,000 for the programme budget and then £250,000 for staffing, and then about £48,000 for operating costs, basically. The figures for staffing—they’re presumably based on the figures for staff currently employed at Tŷ Cerdd and WJEC. How does that break down? I don’t want particular salary numbers, obviously, but just a sense of what the calculation is broadly based on.

 

[252]   Mr Bellingham: First, if I may say, these figures were done before my own appointment in a consultancy role. My understanding is that they make an assumption about what the new staff structure might be, and make an assumption about the salaries for those posts. One of my tasks would be to revisit that structure and those salaries and it may be that I come to a different figure at the end of that work. Obviously, in that context we also have our legal obligations for TUPE arrangements.

 

[253]   Jeremy Miles: Sure. The reason I ask is that there’s a sort of category challenge here, isn’t there? If you were to look at the overall budget and then look at which part of that is represented by operating costs generally, it depends on what those staff do, effectively, obviously, doesn’t it? So, if you’ve got an organisation where, against a budget of £600,000 or £700,000, you’re looking at operating costs of £50,000, that’s extraordinarily lean, isn’t it, on one level. But if you’re looking at operating costs of £300,000 against a budget of £700,000, that’s obviously the opposite end of the spectrum. So, I just want to get a sense of the extent to which that staffing budget is deployed on, if you like, the front line of what the organisation will be doing, which I would imagine is more to do with the programme budget.

 

[254]   Mr Bellingham: I think that every member of the staff team in a new structure would be involved in the delivery of the programme, either through raising money for it or through hands-on delivery. But it’s not going to be a structure that is not delivery focused.

 

[255]   Jeremy Miles: Thank you.

 

[256]   Bethan Jenkins: Earlier you mentioned the local authority connection in relation to the ensembles and that the WJEC still have that relationship, but we didn’t ask about what your view is of the actual situation on the ground to be able to feed up the pyramid at the moment. So, we’ve heard, for example, from the orchestra that they’re getting fewer auditions, fewer people coming through. I don’t think it’s the same challenge for the wind band and the brass sections. So, I’m just trying to understand your views on that, whether you think there is an issue there and whether that will affect you and getting those young people through, or whether at the moment you’re just focusing on what you need to do because of course you’re a new organisation and that’s your priority.

 

[257]   Mr Bellingham: Well, we are focusing on what we need to do to make the organisational change happen, but any fragmentation of the music services has to be a really serious threat. The question is: when will that threat present itself in terms of the national youth ensembles? Is that in three or four years, is it in seven or eight years? At some point, if the bottom of the pyramid is class tuition to everyone—which is fantastic, that we should have music education for every single person—as you get higher up, the talent spotting has to come at that level. Someone spots that two or three people in that classroom are more musical or more technically advanced than the rest, and they have potential, and that’s an opportunity for them to be introduced to music tuition through the peripatetic system and then they go on to play in their school orchestra, their regional orchestra, their county orchestra, and eventually you hope that they’ll come into the national orchestra or the other national ensembles. At any point in the pyramid that starts to get fractured, there’s a potential for those people to fall away, and it could be the case that, in a certain number of years, for example, there aren’t enough people of the right standard to form a national youth orchestra. That would be absolutely tragic and devastating for this nation.

 

[258]   Bethan Jenkins: And who do you think should be flagging—? Obviously, some people are saying to us already that that’s the case. Like I said earlier, people are not trying for those positions. Who would you think should be leading, then, to say, ‘Look, this is where the pinch points are, and this is where we should be putting on our investment’, to make sure that the reality of not having a full orchestra is for the future at all?

 

[259]   Mr Bellingham: I don’t know enough about exactly how it works to really be able to comment, other than, probably, we should look at every layer of the pyramid to see whether it’s potentially broken and have some solutions as to how that could be fixed.

 

[260]   Ms Jones: And, certainly, at the moment, obviously, we are not perceiving ourselves as advocates for the whole pyramid, because we are a new, infant organisation. But, certainly, if, in time, that becomes something we feel we should be getting involved in, then, certainly, I can’t see that we shouldn’t include that within our brief.

 

[261]   Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn heddiw. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd gennych ddiddordeb mewn gweld yr hyn yr ŷm ni’n ei wneud o’r pwyllgor, ac os oes unrhyw wybodaeth ychwanegol yr ydych chi eisiau ei danfon atom ni, plîs, gwnewch hynny, a diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn heddiw.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Thank you very much for coming in today. I’m sure that you’ll be interested in what we do as a committee, and if you have any additional information that you want to send to us, please do that, and thank you very much for coming in today.

[262]   Ms Jones: Diolch.

 

Ms Jones: Thank you.

11:06

 

Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

[263]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen yn awr at eitem 4, sef papurau i’w nodi. Mae papur 1, llythyr gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg at Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi a’r Seilwaith, cynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg—a ydy pawb yn hapus i dderbyn y papurau i’w nodi?

 

Bethan Jenkins: We move on to item 4, now, which is papers to note. Paper 1 is a letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Welsh in education strategic plans—is everyone happy to note those papers?

[264]   Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.

 

Dai Lloyd: Content.

[265]   Bethan Jenkins: Bodlon.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Everyone is content.

 

11:06

 

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

 

Cynnig:

 

Motion:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

 

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

 

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

 

[266]   Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 5, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus i wneud hynny? Diolch yn fawr.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from the rest of the meeting. Is everyone content? Thank you very much.

 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

 

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:07.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:07.