.........
The
proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken
in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:03.
The meeting began at 09:03.
|
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan
Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
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[1]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr a chroeso i gyfarfod
Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Croeso i
Aelodau ac i’r tystion. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb
adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn
cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff, ond ni ddisgwylir
prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn
dawel.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much and welcome to the
meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee
this morning. Welcome to Members and to the witnesses. If
there’s a fire alarm, everybody should leave the room through
the specific fire exits and follow the instructions of the ushers
and the staff, but we’re not expecting a test today. Everyone
should turn their phones to silent.
|
[2]
Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn
gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed
y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl
sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar
sianel 1 a gellir chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0.
|
The
Assembly operates bilingually, and headsets are available to hear
the simultaneous translation and to amplify the sound for those
people who are hard of hearing. There is simultaneous translation
on channel 1 and sound amplification is available on channel 0.
|
[3]
Peidiwch â chyffwrdd
â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall gwneud hynny
amharu ar y system, a gofalwch fod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau
siarad.
|
Please don’t touch the buttons on the microphones because
this could affect the system, and ensure that the red light is on
before starting speak.
|
[4]
A oes unrhyw fuddiannau i’w
datgan gan unrhyw un? Na. Ac nid oes ymddiheuriadau na dirprwyon
heddiw.
|
Are
there any declarations of interest? No. There are no apologies or
substitutions today.
|
Rheoliadau
Safonau’r Gymraeg (Rhif 6) 2017: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth
The Welsh Language Standards (No. 6) Regulations 2017: Evidence
Session
|
[5]
Bethan Jenkins:
Felly, rydym ni’n symud ymlaen
at eitem 2, sef rheoliadau safonau’r Gymraeg. Diolch i chi am
ddod. Mae gennym ni Cerith Jones yma, o Undeb Cenedlaethol Myfyrwyr
Cymru; Fflur Elin hefyd; ac wedyn Dafydd Trystan o’r Coleg
Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
|
So we move on
to item 2, which is the Welsh language standards regulations. Thank
you for coming. We have Cerith Jones from the National Union of
Students Wales; Fflur Elin, also from NUS Wales; and Dafydd Trystan
from the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
|
[6]
Wrth gwrs, rydym ni yma i drafod yr
hyn sy’n cael ei gynnwys yn y rheoliadau addysg, sydd wedi
cael eu newid yn sgil y ffaith iddynt gael eu gwrthod gan y
Cynulliad. A allwch chi jest dweud yn fras os ydych chi’n
hapus gyda sut mae’r newidiadau hynny wedi cael eu cyflwyno
gerbron gan y Gweinidog, ac a oes yna unrhyw sylwadau pellach
gennych chi fel mudiadau?
|
Of course, we
are here to discuss what is included in the education regulations,
which have been amended as a result of the fact that they were
rejected by the Assembly. Could you please tell us generally
whether you are content with how those changes have been introduced
by the Minister, and whether you have any further comments as
organisations?
|
[7]
Ms Elin: Rydym ni’n hapus i weld bod newidiadau
wedi’u gwneud ar y safonau, ond nid ydym ni’n meddwl eu
bod nhw’n ddigon cryf. Un o’r pethau rydym ni
wedi’i ddweud yn ein hymateb yw, yn anochel, pan rych
chi’n creu rhestr, mae rhai pethau sy’n mynd i fod ar
goll. Er enghraifft, nid yw canolfannau hamdden ar y rhestr;
prosesu talu ffioedd myfyrwyr; cofnodion myfyrwyr; y broses o
geisio am ysgoloriaethau, ac ati. Ac mae’n siŵr y bydd
pethau eraill yn codi. Beth fyddai’n well gennym ni ei weld
yw’r pethau sy’n cael eu heithrio. Er enghraifft, un
o’r pethau mae pobl yn dweud sydd ddim yn gallu bod yn y
safonau yw ymchwil, felly efallai byddai hynny’n gallu cael
ei eithrio o orfod bod yn gwbl ddwyieithog. Ond rŷm ni’n
hapus i weld bod rhai newidiadau wedi’u gwneud.
|
Ms Elin:
We are pleased to see that changes have been made to the standards,
but we still don’t think that they are robust enough. One of
the things that we’ve said in our response is, inevitably,
when you draw up a list, there are some things that will be
missing. For example, leisure centres aren’t included; the
processing of student fees payment; student records; the
application process for scholarships, and so on. And I’m sure
there will be other issues arising too. What we would prefer to see
is that exemptions should’ve been included. For example, one
of the things that can’t be included is research, so that
could be an exception in terms of having to be entirely bilingual.
But we are pleased to see that certain changes have been made.
|
[8]
Bethan Jenkins:
A fyddech chi’n mynd mor bell
ag i ddweud bod angen ailedrych ar y rheoliadau hyn oherwydd, fel
rydych chi’n ei ddweud, fod rhai pethau wedi cael eu gadael
allan o hyd o’r rheoliadau hyn?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Would you go as far as to say that we need to look
again at these regulations because, as you say, some things have
been exempted in these regulations?
|
[9]
Ms Elin: Byddwn. Nid ydym ni eisiau eu gweld nhw’n
mynd ac yn cael eu gwrthod eto, achos byddai hynny’n rhoi
stop ar y broses eto, ond beth fyddwn ni’n licio ei weld,
efallai, yw eu bod nhw jest yn cael eu tynnu’n ôl am
ychydig a bod addasiadau’n cael eu gwneud iddyn nhw a’u
bod nhw wedyn yn mynd i’r bleidlais.
|
Ms Elin:
Yes. We don’t want to see them rejected again, because that
would delay the process further, but what we would like to see is
that they should be held back a little and some adaptations made,
and that they are then taken to a vote.
|
[10]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ocê. A oes yna sylwadau
pellach?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Okay. Are there any further comments?
|
[11]
Dr Trystan: Ie. Ar ran y coleg Cymraeg, y peth cyntaf
i’w wneud yw croesawu’r safonau; maen nhw’n gam
sylweddol ymlaen ym maes addysg uwch. Mae yna arfer da ym mhob un o brifysgolion Cymru. Mae
yna bocedi o arfer da. Ond, yr hyn rŷm ni’n teimlo yw, o
weithredu’r safonau yma, fe fydd e’n dod â
chysondeb reit ar draws y prifysgolion ac yn sicrhau bod gan
fyfyrwyr hawliau ym mhob un o brifysgolion Cymru, lle, efallai, ar
hyn o bryd, mae yna brifysgolion sy’n cynnig yr hawliau yna
yn llawn, neu bron yn llawn, ond mae yna amrywiaeth; mae yna
amrywiaeth yn gallu bod hyd yn oed oddi mewn i brifysgolion unigol,
gydag adrannau gwahanol. Mae
gosod safonau fel hyn, wedyn, yn gosod ffrâm ac yn gosod
sail, ac, o wneud hyn, fe fyddan nhw’n gam sicr
ymlaen.
|
Dr
Trystan: Yes. On behalf of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, the
first thing to do is welcome the standards; they are a significant
step forward in the higher education sector. There is good practice
in every university in Wales. There are pockets of good practice.
But what we feel is that, in implementing these standards, it will
bring consistency right across universities and ensure that
students have rights in every Welsh university, where, perhaps, at
present, there are universities that offer those rights fully, or
nearly fully, but there is variety; there can be variety even
within individual universities, within different departments.
Setting standards in this way provides a framework and a basis,
and, in so doing, they will certainly be a step forward.
|
[12]
Roeddech chi’n holi, Gadeirydd,
tybed beth ddylem ni ei wneud heddiw a nawr gyda’r safonau
yma. Gan eu bod nhw’n gam sylweddol ymlaen, byddwn i’n
eich cynghori chi i ystyried eu cefnogi nhw, oherwydd eu bod
nhw’n gam sylweddol ymlaen. Wrth gwrs, mae yna fwy y gellid
ei wneud. Mae yna faterion y gellid eu trafod, ac mae yna faterion,
petawn i wedi’u drafftio nhw, a fyddai, efallai, mymryn yn
wahanol yn fan hyn. Pwy bynnag fyddai wedi’u drafftio nhw,
byddai yna bwyslais mewn rhai mannau, ond, oherwydd eu bod
nhw’n gam sylweddol ymlaen, mae’r prifysgolion yn
disgwyl y safonau yma. Maen nhw’n dechrau cael effaith yn
barod mewn rhai prifysgolion. Rydw i’n credu y byddai’n
ddoeth i’w pasio nhw ac wedyn i symud tuag at weithredu, a,
maes o law, dysgu unrhyw wersi sydd yna i’w dysgu o’u
gosod nhw ar waith.
|
You asked,
Chair, what we should be doing now with these standards today. As
they are a significant step forward, I would advise you to consider
supporting them, because they are a significant step forward. Of
course, more can be done. There are issues that can be discussed,
and there are issues that, if I’d drafted them, perhaps would
be slightly different. Depending on who did the drafting, there
would be an emphasis in certain areas, but, because they’re a
significant step forward, the universities expect these standards.
They’re starting to have an impact already in some
universities. I think it would be wise to pass them and then move
towards implementation, and then learn any lessons that are to be
learnt from implementing them.
|
[13]
Bethan Jenkins:
Yn ôl beth rydw i’n ei
ddeall, mae’r comisiynydd iaith yn mynd i allu dewis a dethol
pa safonau sy’n cael eu rhoi ar y sefydliadau. A ydych
chi’n credu, wedyn, bydd modd i chi ddehongli hynny er mwyn
i’r sefydliadau eu deall er mwyn eu gweithredu ar lawr gwlad,
achos efallai bydd rhai pobl yn dweud ei bod yn eithaf cymhleth i
ddeall pob un ohonyn nhw.
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Bethan
Jenkins: From my understanding, the language commissioner will
be able to select which standards are to be imposed on
institutions. Do you then believe that it would be possible for you
to interpret that in order to ensure that institutions understand
how they need to be implemented, because some people may say that
it’s quite difficult to understand all of the?
|
[14]
Dr Trystan: Ie, mae hynny’n gwestiwn da iawn ac
efallai’n dod i’r holl broses safonau. Rydw i’n
credu ei bod yn ddoeth bod y Gweinidog wedi cyhoeddi bod yna
adolygiad am fod o’r mesur a sut i symud ymlaen yn fanna, ac
efallai y gallai’r broses fod yn llai biwrocrataidd. Yn sicr,
yn fy marn i, gallai fod a dylai fod, ond, dyma’r safonau
sydd wedi’u gosod, ac, o’u gweithredu, fe fyddan
nhw’n glir i brifysgolion ac fe fyddan nhw’n cael
effaith ar y gwasanaeth sy’n cael ei gynnig i fyfyrwyr yn y
prifysgolion. Rydw i’n
credu bod yna ffordd, pan fyddwch chi’n dod i edrych ymlaen
yn ystod y tymor yma, i wella’r mesur. Mae yna bethau
i’w gwneud, yn sicr, ond mae’r rhain yn cynnig
ffrâm, o’u gweithredu’n llawn yn y gwahanol
brifysgolion, i symud y gwasanaeth ymlaen yn sylweddol.
|
Dr
Trystan: Yes, that is a very good question and perhaps relates
to the whole standards process. I think it’s wise that the
Minister has announced that a review is going to be held of the
measure and how to move forward from that, and perhaps the process
could be less bureaucratic. Certainly, in my view, it could and
should be. However, these are the standards that have been set and,
in implementing them, they would be clear for universities and
would have an impact on the service that’s offered to
students in universities. I think there is a way, when you come to
look forward during this term, to improve the measure. There are
things to do, certainly, but these offer a framework, in
implementing them fully in the various universities, to move the
service forward significantly.
|
[15]
Bethan Jenkins:
A oes gan Aelodau gwestiynau?
Jeremy.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Do Members have any questions? Jeremy.
|
[16]
Jeremy Miles:
Oherwydd eich ateb chi, a ydw
i’n deall eich bod chi o’r farn, felly, y byddech
chi’n barod i’w gweld nhw’n mynd o flaen y
Cynulliad yn y ffurf yma, neu a ydych chi hefyd yn gobeithio y bydd
newidiadau cyn iddyn nhw fynd i’r Cynulliad?
|
Jeremy
Miles: From your response, do I understand, therefore, that
you’re of the view that you would be willing to see them put
before the Assembly in their current form, or would you hope to see
them amended before a vote?
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[17]
Dr Trystan: Yn fy marn i—. Yn amlwg, nid yw’r
coleg Cymraeg, fel corff, wedi trafod pob un o’r
safonau—y 180, neu faint bynnag ohonyn nhw sydd—mewn
manylder. Ond yn fy marn i, gan eu bod nhw yn cynnig cam sylweddol
ymlaen, ac, yn wir, nad oes yna gamau yn ôl—.
Hynny yw, rydw i’n edrych
i’ch trafodaeth chi ddoe, yn sicr. Byddai neb yn dadlau ddoe
nad oedd yna gamau ymlaen na chamau yn ôl yn y drafodaeth
honno, ond, gyda’r rhain, maen nhw’n gamau ymlaen yn
sicr. O bosib, maen nhw’n gamau bach. Nid y rhain yw’r
camau mwyaf bras y gellid eu cymryd, ond, ar sail hynny, byddwn
i’n awgrymu y dylid eu pasio nhw yn y ffurf yma a’u
gweithredu. Gwnaf i roi un enghraifft ichi. Roeddwn i’n
trafod gydag un brifysgol sydd wedi datblygu yn sylweddol ei
darpariaeth yn ddiweddar, ac roedden nhw’n dweud eu bod nhw
wedi bod yn gweithio tuag at weithredu’r safonau ac, ar hyn o
bryd, mae llai na 10 o swyddi lle mae’r Gymraeg yn ofynnol yn
y brifysgol honno. Roedden nhw’n ystyried, o
weithredu’r safonau ac er mwyn cynnig gwasanaeth addas i
fyfyrwyr, y byddai’r ffigwr yna’n agosach at 100, sydd
yn dal i fod yn ganran fach iawn o’r staff sydd yn y
brifysgol honno, ond mae hynny’n werthfawr, byddwn i’n
awgrymu wrthych chi.
|
Dr
Trystan: In my view—. Clearly, the Coleg Cymraeg
Cenedlaethol, as a body, hasn’t discussed each one of these
standards—the 180, or however many there are—in detail.
But, in my view, because they offer a significant step forward,
and, really, there are no retrograde steps—. I was looking at
your discussion yesterday. Certainly, nobody would argue yesterday
that there weren’t steps forward or retrograde steps in that
discussion, but, with these, they certainly are steps forward. They
could be considered to be small steps. They’re not the
biggest steps that could be taken, but, on that basis, I would
suggest that they should be passed in this form and implemented. I
will give you one example. I was discussing with one university
that have significantly developed their provision recently, and
they were saying that they’ve been working towards
implementing the standards, and, at the moment, there are fewer
than 10 posts where the Welsh language is a requirement. Their
thinking was that, in implementing the standards and offering an
appropriate service for students, that that figure would be closer
to 100, which, okay, is still a small percentage of the staff at
that university, but that is valuable, I would suggest to you.
|
[18]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydych chi eisiau dod nôl ar
hynny?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Do you want to come back on that?
|
[19]
Jeremy Miles:
Gwnaethoch chi sôn am arfer da
mewn prifysgolion. A fyddech chi’n disgrifio’r sefyllfa
fel un lle mae arfer da sydd yn well na’r safonau sydd yn
cael eu trafod fan hyn, a beth yw’r ffordd orau o
rannu’r arfer da yna?
|
Jeremy
Miles: You mentioned good practice in universities. Would you
describe the situation as one where there is good practice that is
better than the standards being discussed here, and what’s
the best way of sharing that best practice?
|
[20]
Dr Trystan: Wel, mae hynny’n gwestiwn da. Un o’r
pethau rydym ni’n ei wneud fel coleg Cymraeg yn rheolaidd yw
tynnu arbenigwyr a darlithwyr o ar draws Cymru at ei gilydd i rannu
arferion da o ran cefnogaeth myfyrwyr, o ran asesu myfyrwyr. Un
o’r pethau lle mae yna drafodaeth i’w chael yw a ddylid
cyfieithu gwaith myfyrwyr, er enghraifft. Mae’r Asiantaeth
Safonau Ansawdd ei hunan yn dweud nad yw hynny’n arfer gorau,
ac felly mae’r Coleg wedi adnabod arferion da lle’r
ydym ni’n gallu cydweithio â darlithwyr ac adnabod
arbenigwyr. So, os ydych chi’n cyflwyno gwaith yn y Gymraeg,
ym mha bynnag bwnc—os yw e yn y gyfraith neu mewn
gwleidyddiaeth neu yn nyrsio neu beth bynnag yw e—mae yna
arbenigwr sydd, fan lleiaf, yn gallu ail-farcio’r gwaith yn y
Gymraeg yn ogystal â’r marcio cyntaf sydd, efallai, o
gyfieithiad. So, mae yna ffyrdd o rannu arfer da. Byddwn i’n
dweud bod yna sawl enghraifft o arfer sy’n mynd y tu hwnt
i’r safonau, ond da hynny. Nid wyf i’n credu y bydd y
safonau’n peryglu hynny mewn unrhyw ffordd. Mater i ni, mater
i’r prifysgolion ac eraill yw dangos yr arfer da hwnnw a
chymell pob un o’r prifysgolion i ymgyrraedd at y lefel
honno.
|
Dr
Trystan: That is a good question. One of the things that
we’re doing as the coleg Cymraeg on a regular basis is
to bring experts and lecturers together from all over Wales to
share good practice in terms of student support, in terms of
student assessment. One of the areas where there is a discussion to
be had is whether the work of students should be translated, for
example. The Quality Assurance Agency itself says that that is not
best practice and, therefore, the coleg has identified good
practice where we can collaborate with lecturers and identify
experts. So, if you do present work in Welsh, in whatever subject
that might be—whether it’s in nursing, law, politics or
so forth—there will be an expert who, at least, can re-mark
that work in Welsh, as well as the first marker, who, perhaps, is
using a translation. So, there are ways of sharing good practice. I
would say there are many examples of good practice that go beyond
the standards, and that’s a good thing. I don’t think
the standards will endanger that in any way. It’s a matter
for us, for universities and for others, to demonstrate that good
practice and to encourage all universities to aim to that
level.
|
[21]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Suzy.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Suzy.
|
[22]
Suzy
Davies: Rwy’n derbyn bod y cwestiwn o anghysondeb yn creu
effaith ar ddealltwriaeth yn gyffredinol, ond a allaf i jest ofyn
cwestiynau yn glou am y rhestr o bynciau sydd ddim yn y rhai newydd
yma? A ydy e’n bosib dweud os yw rhai o’r rhain, neu un
ohonyn nhw, yn flaenoriaeth i’ch myfyrwyr? Rwyf i eisiau trio
cael rhyw fath o sens o beth yw’r hawliau mwyaf pwysig
i’ch aelodau, achos mae cyfnod i gael tystiolaeth nawr yn dod
ymlaen.
|
Suzy
Davies: I understand that the question of inconsistency does
have an impact on people’s understanding of this generally,
but can I just ask you a very quick question on the list of issues
not included here? Could you tell us whether any of these is a
priority for your students? I’m just trying to get a sense of
what the most important issues are for your members, because this
is an evidence-gathering period now, isn’t it?
|
[23]
Ms
Elin: Yn y bôn, beth rydym ni’n moyn yw addysg
sy’n gynhwysol i bawb, ac addysg y mae pawb yn gallu cael
mynediad ati a llwyddo ynddi, dim ots beth yw eu nodweddion
a’u cefndir. Yng Nghymru, mae hynny’n golygu cael
mynediad at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Pan fyddwn ni’n siarad am
addysg yn Gymraeg, nid ydym ni jest yn siarad am ddarpariaeth yn yr
ystafell ddosbarth neu’r llyfrau sydd ar gael, er eu bod
nhw’n hollbwysig, ond y profiad cyfan yn y brifysgol. Ac
rwy’n meddwl mai dyna pam y byddwn i’n hoffi gweld bod
eithriadau yn hytrach na rhestr. Er enghraifft, canolfannau
hamdden—mae rhai myfyrwyr mewn un brifysgol wedi cael problem
gyda dwyieithrwydd yn y ganolfan hamdden sy’n berchen
i’r brifysgol, ac mae yna fyfyrwyr sy’n astudio rhannau
o’u cwrs nhw yn y llefydd yna. Felly, beth fyddem ni’n
licio gweld yw bod y safonau’n rhoi’r pŵer yna
i’r myfyrwyr allu herio eu prifysgol pan fo angen, er mwyn
gwella’r ddarpariaeth.
|
Ms Elin: Fundamentally, what we
want is inclusive education, education that everyone can access and
thrive in, whatever their background or characteristics. In Wales,
that means having access to Welsh-medium education. When
we’re talking about Welsh-medium education, we’re not
just talking about provision in the classroom and the materials
available, although they’re crucially important, but the
rounded experience within the university. And that’s why I
would want to see exceptions, rather than a list of inclusions. For
example, leisure centres—some students at a university have
had a problem with bilingualism at the leisure centre owned by the
university, and there are students studying parts of their courses
at those locations. So, what we would want to see is the standards
giving those students the power to challenge their university when
required in order to improve provision.
|
[24]
Suzy
Davies: Diolch yn fawr.
|
Suzy
Davies: Thank you.
|
[25]
Bethan
Jenkins: Unrhyw beth arall, Suzy?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Anything else, Suzy?
|
[26]
Suzy
Davies: Na, rwy’n iawn.
|
Suzy
Davies: No, that’s fine for me.
|
[27]
Bethan
Jenkins: Dai.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Dai.
|
[28]
Dai
Lloyd: Diolch yn fawr am y dystiolaeth. Wrth gwrs, fel pobl sydd yn
gorfod pleidleisio ar y pethau yma, yn aml rydym ni mewn
cyfyng-gyngor. Fel mae Dafydd wedi cyfeirio eisoes, gyda phroses
Bil Cymru ddoe, roeddem ni mewn sawl wythnos o gyfyng-gyngor. Ar
ddiwedd y dydd, mae’n rhaid i rywun bleidleisio
‘ie’ neu ‘na’ o blaid y rheoliadau
yma.
|
[29]
Dai Lloyd: Thank you very much for the evidence. Of course, as
people who have to vote on these issues, quite often, we’re
in a quandary. As Dafydd mentioned, with the Wales Bill process
yesterday, we were in a quandary for many weeks. At the end of the
day, one has to vote ‘yes’ or ‘no’ in
relation to these regulations.
|
09:15
|
[30]
Rwy’n
edrych hefyd at ein cefnogwyr cyfreithiol ni. Rwy’n derbyn
beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud, sef bod beth sydd o’n
blaen yn well na beth sydd yna ar hyn o bryd, achos, wedi gwrthod y
rhain, bron i flwyddyn yn ôl rŵan, nid oes yna ddim byd
gerbron yn awr. Felly, os ydym
ni fel Cynulliad yn mynd i bleidleisio yn erbyn y rhain achos eu
bod nhw’n amherffaith, ni fydd yna’n dal ddim
rheoliadau mewn lle. Rydw i jest eisiau nodi hynny. Wedyn, y
broses, felly, os ydym ni’n mynd i ddilyn y trywydd o gynnig
gwelliant ar hyd y ffordd yr ydych chi’n awgrymu, a ydy
hynny’n mynd i oedi’r system? A ydy hynny’n mynd
i daflu’r system yn gyfan gwbl i lawr rhyw ffos yn rhywle,
neu i’r glaswellt hir, fel na fyddwn yn gweld y rheoliadau
yma am fisoedd eto? A ydy hi’n bosibl gwneud rhyw fân
newid fel yna drwy atodiad ychwanegol, felly, ar hyd y llinellau
sydd wedi cael eu hawgrymu, ynteu a ydy hynny’n mynd i lwyr
ddifetha’r system hon, a’r dewis sydd gyda ni ydy
cytuno’r rhestr yma neu anghytuno’r rhestr yma, sydd yn
golygu blwyddyn arall heb ddim rheoliadau? Nid ydw i’n gwybod
pwy sydd eisiau ymateb i hynny.
|
I’m also looking to our legal advisers. I
accept what you say, which is that what is in front of us is better
than what is in place currently, because, having rejected these
nearly a year ago now, there is nothing before us at the
moment. So, if, as an
Assembly, we’re going to vote against these because
they’re imperfect, there will still be no regulations in
place. I just want to note that. So, the process, therefore, if
we’re going to follow the route of providing an amendment in
the way that you suggest, is that going to delay the system? Is
that going to lead to the system being thrown away, into the long
grass, so that we might not see these regulations again for many
months? Is it possible to introduce minor changes along the lines
that have been suggested, or will that completely destroy the
system, and the option that we have is to agree or disagree with
this list, which would mean another year without regulations? I
don’t know who’d like to respond to that.
|
[31]
Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch, Dai. Fe wnawn ni jest ofyn i Gwyn, fel cynghorydd, i
esbonio pe bai ymgynghoriad arall, a yw’n bosibl cael
ymgynghoriad arall, neu a oes yn rhaid, wedyn, fel y mae Dai yn
dweud, dweud ‘ie’ neu ‘na’ i hyn, ac wedyn
derbyn yr amherffeithrwydd yn y system.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you, Dai. I will just ask Gwyn, as an adviser,
to explain, if there were to be further consultation, whether
it’s possible to have such a consultation, or, as Dai said,
do we just have to agree or disagree with these, and accept the
imperfections within the system.
|
[32]
Mr
Griffiths: Wel, y dewis fydd gerbron y Cynulliad ar sail y ddeddfwriaeth
yma ydy ‘ie’ neu ‘nage’. Mae dwy ffordd
o’u newid nhw. Yn gyntaf, fe all y Llywodraeth eu tynnu nhw
nôl a gwneud mân newidiadau a’u hailgyflwyno nhw.
Byddai hynny—wel, yn yr achos yma, mae o wedi arwain at
ohiriad o bron i flwyddyn ar gyfer newidiadau cymharol
fychan.
|
Mr Griffiths: Well, the choice before the Assembly on the basis of
this legislation will be on a ‘yes’ or ‘no’
basis. There are two ways of amending these. First of all, the
Government could withdraw them and make minor amendments and
reintroduce them. Well, in that case, that has led to a delay of
almost a year for relatively minor changes.
|
[33]
Y dewis arall
fyddai pasio’r rhain fel y maen nhw, a gofyn i’r
Llywodraeth ailystyried rhai materion a chyflwyno rheoliadau
pellach sy’n diwygio’r rhain maes o law. Ni fyddai
hynny yn oedi’r broses o roi’r rhain ar waith, ond
byddai’n rhoi cyfle i chi argymell newidiadau pellach
i’w dwyn ymlaen ymhellach ymlaen.
|
The other option would be to pass them as they are
currently drafted and ask the Government to reconsider certain
issues and introduce further regulations that would amend these in
due time. That wouldn’t delay the process of implementing
these, but it would give you an opportunity to propose further
changes that could be brought forward at a later date.
|
[34]
Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch. A oes sylwadau penodol gyda chi ar hynny?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Any specific comments on that?
|
[35]
Ms
Elin: Oes. Rydw i’n meddwl, yn amlwg, pan fydd gennych restr
fel hon, rydym ni wedi ffeindio pethau sydd ar goll, ond
rwy’n meddwl mai ein blaenoriaeth ni yw bod safonau. Beth nid
ydym ni eisiau ei weld yw eu bod nhw’n gorfod cael eu gwrthod
eto, achos fel rydych chi’n dweud, mae hynny’n gwneud y
broses yn flwyddyn arall. Mae’n bwysig bod gan fyfyrwyr y
safonau mewn lle fel eu bod nhw, fel y dywedais i, yn gallu galw am
ddarpariaeth well trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, beth fyddem
ni’n hoffi ei weld mewn byd delfrydol yw bod modd gwneud y
newidiadau a gwneud y gwelliannau, ond os nad yw hynny’n
bosibl, ein blaenoriaeth yw bod safonau yna.
|
Ms Elin: Yes. I
think, clearly, when you have a list such as this, we’ve
found things that are missing, but I think our priority is that
there are standards. What we don’t want to see is that they
have to be rejected again, because as you said, that has extended
the process a year. It’s important that the students have the
standards in place so that, as I said, they can call for improved
provision through the medium of Welsh. So, what we would like to
see in an ideal world is that there’s a way of introducing
changes and amendments, but if that isn’t possible, the
priority would be that the standards exist.
|
[36]
Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch. Dafydd.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thanks. Dafydd.
|
[37]
Dr
Trystan: Rydw i’n meddwl, Gadeirydd, fod rhai o’r pwyntiau
y mae ein ffrindiau coll o Gymdeithas yr Iaith yn eu gwneud yn eu
tystiolaeth nhw am y broses, a sut efallai y gellid gwella’r
broses, yn rhai i’w hystyried yn y dyfodol. Fel ag y mae,
rydw i’n teimlo bod y rhain yn gam mawr ymlaen, a byddwn
i’n tybio, petawn ni flwyddyn lawr y lein, neu ddwy flynedd
lawr y lein, a bod yna issue penodol wedi dod i’r
amlwg am ganolfannau hamdden neu beth bynnag yw e, fe fyddwn
i’n gobeithio y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn agored i
ystyried gwneud rheoliadau pellach petai angen.
|
Dr
Trystan: Well, Chair, I do think that some of the points that
our missing colleagues from Cymdeithas yr Iaith make in their
evidence about the process, and how the process could be improved,
are ones that may be considered for the future. But as it currently
stands, I do think that this represents a major step forward and I
would assume that if we were a year down the line, or two years
down the line, and there was a specific issue that had emerged on
sports centres or whatever else it may be, then I would hope that
the Government would be willing to consider further regulations if
that were necessary.
|
[38]
Rydw i yn meddwl
bod yna balance wrth wneud newidiadau a Deddfau cydraddoldeb
o fynd yn ddigon pell i fynd â phobl gyda chi ond heb fynd
mor bell ei fod yn anymarferol i’w gweithredu. Mae
hynny’n gamp. Rydw i’n eithaf diamynedd fel person.
Rydw i bob amser yn hoff o fynd ymhellach, efallai, ond mae’r
cydbwysedd yna yn bwysig, ac rydw i’n credu, yn yr achos yma,
mae’r Llywodraeth wedi ystyried y cydbwysedd yna. Fe fydd
ambell her i brifysgolion o weithredu’r safonau yma, ac fe
fydd e’n newid diwylliant mewn rhai mannau. Felly, wrth eu
pasio nhw, gobeithio, peidiwch â meddwl nad oes yna
wahaniaeth yn mynd i ddod o ganlyniad i’r safonau sydd ger
eich bron heddiw.
|
I do think that there is a balance to be struck in
making changes and in making law on equality, in going far enough
and taking people with you, but not going so far that it’s
impractical in its implementation. That’s something of an
art. I’m quite impatient as an individual. I always want to
go further, but that balance is important. In this case, I do think
the Government has taken that balance into account. There will be
some challenges for universities in implementing these standards,
and it will be a culture change in certain places. So, as they are
passed—I hope—please don’t think that these
standards that are before you today won’t make a
difference.
|
[39]
Bethan
Jenkins: A wyt ti eisiau dod nôl ar hynny, Dai?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Dai, do you want to come back on that?
|
[40]
Dai
Lloyd: Wel, jest i gadarnhau y bydd pobl yn fodlon, felly, yn y maes,
pe bawn ni yn dod i ryw fath o gytundeb yn fan hyn gyda’r
rhai sydd yn gorfod pleidleisio ar y pethau hyn, y byddai’n
ddigon teg i bleidleisio o blaid y rhestr yma, ond gan ddweud wrth
y Llywodraeth fod yna ddisgwyl y bydd angen newid, o bryd i’w
gilydd, fel y mae tystiolaeth arall megis y canolfannau hamdden yn
dod i law. Felly, rwy’n edrych am ryw fath o arweiniad o ochr
Gwyn, ac wrth gwrs ochr y dystiolaeth. Felly, gallai pawb fod yn
rhyw fath o hapus efo rhyw fath o osodiad fel yna.
|
Dai Lloyd: I
just want to confirm that people will be content in this area if we
came to sort of agreement here with those who have to vote on these
things that it would be fair to vote for this list, but in doing so
saying to the Government that there’s an expectation for a
change from time to time, as other evidence such as leisure centres
comes to light. So, I’m looking for some sort of guidance on
this from Gwyn, and from the point of view of the evidence. So,
everyone could be sort of content with that sort of
statement.
|
[41]
Dr
Trystan: Nid ydw i ddim yn siŵr os gallaf siarad ar ran y sector
gyfan, ond petai’r sector yn rhoi’r hawl i mi ei
wneud—. [Chwerthin.] Hynny yw, mae darlithwyr, mae’r bobl sydd
â’u calonnau nhw yn y gwaith o addysgu cyfrwng Cymraeg
yn ein prifysgolion ni, maen nhw’n awyddus i weld safonau a
byddan nhw’n falch o weld y rhain yn pasio, ac yn edrych
ymlaen at weithio oddi mewn i
fframwaith y safonau.
|
Dr Trystan: I’m not sure if I can speak on behalf of the
whole sector, but if the sector were to give me the right to do
so—. [Laughter.] That is, lecturers and those who are fully involved
in teaching through the medium of Welsh in our colleges and
universities are eager to see standards, and they will be pleased
to see these passed, and will look forward to working within
the standards framework.
|
[42]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ac, wrth gwrs, bydd beirniadaeth
wleidyddol eto yn dod i mewn i’r peth hefyd, rwy’n
siŵr. [Chwerthin.] Lee Waters.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: And, of course, there will be political criticism
coming into this again, I’m sure. [Laughter.] Lee
Waters.
|
[43]
Lee Waters: I’d just like to follow up on something
Dafydd Trystan said about the practicality. You gave the example of
one university where only 10 posts currently require Welsh as an
essential, and that will go up to 100. So, how would the university
you spoke to in that case be dealing practically with that? Is that
achievable, and what would be the opportunity costs of that?
|
[44]
Dr Trystan: Well, I wouldn’t want to go into the
precise specifics of an individual university, but what we’ve
seen is that where universities have, say, put a requirement for
Welsh to be essential, or even desirable, on posts, they’ve
managed to recruit suitable staff to fill those gaps. I mean, there
are schools in a university not far from here that have an
administrative team of, say, half a dozen, and they offer education
in both languages, and what they seek to do is to make sure that
one of those half a dozen can deal with the students in both
languages, and they’ve managed to achieve that.
|
[45]
I think what’s happened, if I was to be a little more open,
is that there have been language schemes in place in all of these
universities for several years, but the degree to which they have
been fully implemented varies greatly. Those that have been
implementing their language schemes conscientiously will not have
great difficulty with the standards.
|
[46]
Lee Waters: Presumably because that’s practically very
difficult. You give the example of a team of six administrators;
so, were this change to be brought in, I assume that one of those
administrators’ posts would have to be changed and the
existing post holder moved, made redundant, because we’re not
anticipating extra resource, so we need to be able to do this.
|
[47]
Dr Trystan: No. I think there’s an element of
planning, of creativity, that universities, that all institutions
that operate bilingually, have undertaken for many years, and the
Welsh Government itself ensures that there are enough staff to be
able to deal with the people of Wales in both languages. I
don’t think it is beyond universities. What we’re
talking about here is a very small percentage of the university
cohort, and there are examples—I come back to the point about
different universities—there are examples of universities in
the same city that have twice as many Welsh-speaking staff as
others, and that’s merely because they added ‘Welsh
desirable’ to their adverts. I mean, we’re not talking
about huge changes here, but there are small changes that can be
made that will have, consequentially, a longer term impact. There
is no understanding here that there will be, sort of, posts being
got rid of or anything; it’s slowly, over time, planning
properly your workforce needs to deliver to the needs of your
students.
|
[48]
Lee Waters: Could I also ask the NUS Wales representatives
about one of the changes, which was including the student intranet
within the standards? I think it’s standard 12. So, the
student intranet’s a dynamic, changing website, with lots of
new content being added constantly, so there’s going to be a
resource implication to that, and, presumably, again, without any
extra resources, that’s resource coming from elsewhere. Why
do you think the student intranet is such an important thing to
have translated?
|
[49]
Ms Elin: Well, the student intranet is key in terms of
accessing your education. So, you use that to submit your
assignments, to read resources from class, and, like we said, Welsh
students should have the ability to engage with their education
through the medium of Welsh. There are students who are more
confident when speaking, reading, listening through the language of
Welsh, and they shouldn’t have an extra barrier placed
between them and engaging with education. And with intranet and
internet becoming, you know, more and more of a key part of
students’ everyday academic life—you know, you access
your intranet nearly every day when you’re a
student—they should be able to access that through the medium
of Welsh as a right. I think that’s why we welcome that the
safonau put that in place, because there should be central
governance from the Assembly putting these duties on universities,
in order to ensure that they can access Welsh language
education.
|
[50]
Lee Waters: Could I ask a separate point? I was struck by
what you said about the case for moving to a basis of exceptions,
rather than trying to enumerate everything. Dafydd Trystan said
something that was making a similar point. Because this is my first
detailed exposure to the standards, and I was struck by how complex
they are. So, for example, standard 160 says:
|
[51]
‘You must keep a record of the number of members of staff who
wear a badge…at the end of each financial year.’
|
[52]
There’s a badge indicating that you’re able to speak
Welsh. Do you really think that the standards should be capturing
that level of detail?
|
[53]
Ms Elin: Well, if you take that down to the experience of a
student going into university, particularly in south Wales, for
example, you might initially start a conversation in English,
especially if you’re a learner. So, a badge that indicates
that you speak Welsh, I suppose, makes the experience—. I
mean, that is a big level of detail—
|
[54]
Lee Waters: But that’s common sense. You don’t
need to capture that in law, do you?
|
[55]
Ms Elin: The safonau go into a lot of detail to
ensure that this provision is being put in place. I think we
welcome that Welsh students can see whether or not staff can
communicate with them through the medium of Welsh.
|
[56]
Lee Waters: So, you think that level of legal compulsion is
necessary.
|
[57]
Ms Elin: We think it is good that there are rules on
universities to make sure that they are providing an experience for
students that is delivered through the medium of Welsh.
|
[58]
Dr Trystan: I think what is interesting here—if I may,
Fflur—is that were it to be the case that university policies
were routinely advising students of the Welsh-speaking skills of
their staff, then I’m sure that the Government wouldn’t
have been minded to make such regulations. But it isn’t the
case at the moment. In an ideal world, these matters probably
shouldn’t be matters of law, but we are where we are.
I’m sure you’re not, but there’s almost a
temptation to say that—. I mean, all equalities legislation
does provide some burden to the public authorities that have to
enforce that legislation. Over time, public authorities, Assembly
Members and Members of Parliament have taken the view that, in
order to ensure equality, whether it is for Welsh speakers, men and
women, LGBT or for whatever other characteristics we would want to
ensure equality, there is a need for legislation. Therefore,
that’s what’s behind the standards legislation. It is,
in my view, a piece of equalities legislation, and that needs to be
appropriate to the context then.
|
[59]
Lee Waters: Indeed, and also, the judgment is: where does
the boundary of appropriateness start and stop? You made the point
about the balance between trying to change culture, and sometimes
you go ahead of where public opinion is and risk an adverse
reaction. I’m just wondering whether you think that making
universities count the number of people issued with badges, and
reporting on that on an annual basis, goes too far in that
respect.
|
[60]
Dr Trystan: I think if you went into the individual details
of lots—
|
[61]
Lee Waters: Well, that’s our job.
|
[62]
Dr Trystan: Yes. There could be a discussion. Given the
current context, I don’t think it goes too far. I think
ensuring that people know which staff members they can deal with
through the medium of Welsh without having to go through that
awkward conversation of starting the conversation in Welsh and then
somebody having to apologise, ‘Oh, no, I don’t really
speak Welsh’, because that can be embarrassing, not only to
the person you’re speaking to, but also to the student or to
myself. If I start a conversation in Welsh because I believe
somebody to be a Welsh speaker, there’s always a little bit
of awkwardness, isn’t there? So, I think it makes sense. It
is common sense. If it were being implemented everywhere, I’m
sure that the Government would not have made the regulation. The
final answer to the question is that you can refer the question to
the Minister who will be with you later, who has decided to put it
in here. But I think he is right to put it in here on the basis of
current practice.
|
[63]
Lee Waters: Thank you.
|
[64]
Bethan Jenkins:
Edrych ymlaen i weld dy fathodyn di y
tro nesaf, te, Dafydd. [Chwerthin.] Jeremy, a wyt ti eisiau dod nôl ar
hynny?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: I’m looking forward to seeing your badge next
time, Dafydd. [Laughter.] Jeremy, do you want to come back
on that?
|
[65]
Jeremy Miles:
Dafydd, gwnaethoch chi sôn bod
y coleg cenedlaethol, wrth gwrs, yn croesawu’r safonau, fel y
byddem yn ei ddisgwyl, a bod presenoldeb y safonau, er nad ydyn nhw
eto yn gyfraith gwlad, wedi dechrau newid arfer mewn sefydliadau.
Beth yw eich argraff chi, yn ehangach, ar ymateb y sefydliadau i
ddyfodiad y safonau hyn?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Dafydd, you mentioned that the coleg
cenedlaethol, of course, welcomed these standards, as we would
expect, and that the presence of the standards, even though
they’re not the law of the land, have started to change
practices. What is your experience of the response of institutions
to the arrival of these standards?
|
[66]
Dr Trystan: Wel, a gawn ni ei roi e fel hyn? Mae yna dair
carfan o bobl rwy’n dod ar eu traws yn y prifysgolion. Mae
yna bobl sydd yn ymrwymedig i’r Gymraeg. Fe fyddan
nhw’n gwneud popeth o fewn eu gallu nhw i ddatblygu
gweithgarwch Cymraeg, hyd yn oed os ydyn nhw’n gwneud
hynny’n wirfoddol, heb eu bod nhw’n cael unrhyw
gydnabyddiaeth gan y brifysgol am wneud hynny. Mae yna garfan yn
fanna.
|
Dr
Trystan: Well, if I can put it in these terms: there are three
cohorts of people that I come across within universities. There are
people who are committed to the Welsh language who will do
everything they can to develop Welsh activities, even if they do so
on a voluntary basis, without them receiving any recognition from
the university for doing that. There is a cohort there.
|
[67]
Mae yna garfan wedyn—a
dyma’r garfan fwyaf, o bell ffordd—sy’n barod i
wneud pethau os oes yn rhaid iddyn nhw, neu os oes yna achos cryf
dros wneud. Dyma grynswth prifysgolion a staff prifysgolion
Cymru.
|
There is
another cohort—and this is the largest, by a long
stretch—who are willing to do things if they are required to
do so, or if there is a strong case for doing so. This is the
largest group within the universities and university staff in
Wales.
|
[68]
Wedyn, mae yna rai sydd yn
elyniaethus ac yn gwneud popeth y gallan nhw i atal darparu
gwasanaethau Cymraeg. Roedd yna un enghraifft o adran a oedd yn
dweud, ‘Wel, os ŷch chi am gyflwyno gwaith yn Gymraeg,
ffein; os ŷch chi yn bod mor ffôl â hynny, mater i
chi yw hynny, ond mae’n rhaid i chi gyflwyno’r gwaith
yn Gymraeg o leiaf pythefnos cyn y gwaith yn Saesneg. Fe fyddwn
ni’n cael e wedi’i gyfieithu, ac wedyn mae’n
rhaid i chi fynd trwy’r cyfieithiad i tsieco ei fod yn
ocê, ac wedyn byddwn ni’n ei farco fe yn
Saesneg’. Nawr, mae’n amlwg nad yw hynny ddim—.
Mae hynny’n bell iawn o fod yn arfer gorau. Felly, fe fydd y
safonau yn cael eu croesawu gan y sawl sydd o blaid y Gymraeg ac
sydd wedi bod yn gweithio yn ddiwyd dros y Gymraeg. Fe fydd y
safonau yn cael eu gweithredu yn ddigon bodlon a hapus gan y
crynswth yna o staff sy’n fodlon gwneud pethau ac sy’n
gweld yr achos dros ddarparu. Ac, ymysg y sawl, efallai’r
lleiafrif bach yna, sydd ddim mor gefnogol i ddatblygiadau Cymraeg
a sicrhau hynny, fe fydd y safonau’n ei gwneud yn glir bod
yna wasanaeth y gall pob myfyriwr ym mhrifysgolion Cymru ddisgwyl
ei dderbyn. Felly, yn gyffredinol, rydw i’n credu y bydd y
prifysgolion yn croesawu’r safonau ac y byddan nhw’n
edrych i gyrff fel y coleg Cymraeg ac eraill i gydweithio gyda nhw
i ddelifro’r safonau mewn ffordd sy’n gall ac
sy’n arddel synnwyr cyffredin hefyd.
|
There are those
also who are opposed to these provisions and will do everything
they can to prevent Welsh-medium provision. There was one example
where a department said, ‘Well, if you want to present work
in Welsh, then fine; if you’re that foolish, that’s an
issue for you, but you’ll have to submit that work in Welsh
at least a fortnight before the work presented by your colleagues
in English. We will get it translated, and then you will have to
check that translation to check that it’s okay, and
we’ll mark it in English’. So, it’s clear that
that isn’t—. That’s a long way from being best
practice. So, the standards will be welcomed by those who are
supportive of the Welsh language and have worked diligently to
further the language. The standards will be implemented quite
happily by that large group of staff who see the case for making
the provision and are willing to do so. And, among the perhaps
small minority who perhaps aren’t as supportive of the
development of the Welsh language, then the standards will make it
clear to them that there is a service that all students at Welsh
universities can expect to receive. So, generally speaking, I think
that the universities will welcome the standards and that they will
look to bodies such as the coleg Cymraeg and others to work
with them in delivering the standards in a way that demonstrates
common sense and wisdom.
|
09:30
|
[69]
Jeremy Miles:
Ac o ran arweinyddiaeth ac adrannau
corfforaethol sefydliadau, a fyddech chi’n dweud bod crynswth
y rheini yn y categori canol?
|
Jeremy
Miles: And, in terms of leadership and the corporate
departments of the establishments, would you say the majority of
those are in the middle category?
|
[70]
Dr Trystan: Byddwn. A bod yn onest, rydw i’n credu
beth yr ŷm ni wedi ei weld hefyd mewn blynyddoedd diweddar yw
cyfres o benodiadau ar lefel uwch ym mhrifysgolion Cymru o bobl
sy’n ymglywed yn fwy gyda Chymru a
rôl—rwy’n meddwl am is-ganghellor Prifysgol
Caerdydd. O beth y mae e wedi ei ddweud yn gyhoeddus, mae yn amlwg
yn gweld Caerdydd fel prifysgol Gymreig ryngwladol. Nid dyna fel y
bu erioed ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd—cawn ni ei dweud hi
felly.
|
Dr
Trystan: Yes, I would. And, to be honest, what we’ve also
seen in recent years is a series of appointments at senior levels
at Welsh universities of people who have a greater awareness of
Wales and a role—I’m thinking of the vice-chancellor at
Cardiff University. In terms of his public statements, he clearly
sees Cardiff as a Welsh and international university. That
hasn’t always been the case at Cardiff University, if I can
put it in those terms.
|
[71]
Mae is-ganghellor newydd Prifysgol
Met Caerdydd wedi dod â chyd-destun o weithio ym maes
cydraddoldeb ac wedi dod o’r Alban ac mae gydag ef ddiddordeb
mawr yng Nghymru ac ati hefyd. Felly, mae yna benodiadau sy’n
cynnig y cyfle i arweinyddiaeth prifysgolion a’r safonau
blethu a chydweithio.
|
The new
vice-chancellor of Cardiff Met University has brought with him a
context of working in the field of equality and has come from
Scotland and has huge interest in Wales, and so on. So, there are
appointments that provide opportunities for leadership within
universities and the standards to come together and work
effectively.
|
[72]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn
ynglŷn â’ch sylwadau chi, Fflur, ynglŷn
â lles myfyrwyr ac a ydy hynny yn rhy eang. Yn ôl beth
rwy’n ei ddeall, mae’r diffiniad yng nghyd-destun
iechyd meddwl a chwnsela, ond rŷch chi eisiau i hynny fod yn
fwy specific ynglŷn â beth sydd yn dod o dan
gyngor. Ond, eto, fyddech chi ddim, rydw i’n clywed, am inni
bleidleisio yn erbyn hwn. A allwch chi jest ehangu ar hynny yn
fras?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. I just wanted to ask about your comments,
Fflur, regarding student welfare and whether that is too broad.
From what I understand, the definition is in the context of mental
health and counselling, but you want that to be more specific in
terms of what comes under advice. But, then, I hear that you
wouldn’t want us to reject this by voting against it. Could
you just expand on that broadly?
|
[73]
Ms Elin: O ble y byddwn i’n dod yw bod lles
myfyrwyr yn gallu bod yn rhywbeth eithaf eang, ac mae’n anodd
diffinio yn union beth fyddai hynny. Mewn prifysgolion, mae rhai
pobl yn darparu cwnsela, cyngor ariannol, cyngor gyda thai,
systemau cyfoed myfyrwyr, lle, pan ŷch chi’n dechrau yn
y brifysgol, mae myfyrwyr sy’n edrych ar eich ôl chi ac
yn gwneud yn siŵr eich bod chi’n setlo yn y brifysgol,
ac ati, ac rydym ni’n meddwl y dylai myfyrwyr allu gael yr
hawl at y systemau a’r cymorth yna drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Nawr, ni fyddwn i eisiau ei weld yn cael ei gyfyngu eto, achos, fel
yr ŷm ni wedi dweud yn barod, pan fo gyda chi restr, rŷch
chi’n mynd i golli rhywbeth, ond efallai, os oes newidiadau
yn cael eu gwneud i’r safonau, efallai fod modd ymhelaethu ar
ba fath o ardaloedd y byddai hynny’n eu cyfro er mwyn i
fyfyrwyr allu—. Fel nad ydy ddim jest yn gwnsela, er bod
hynny’n hollbwysig, achos mae diffyg darpariaeth cwnsela drwy
gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn broblem gyffredinol yng Nghymru, ond bod bach
o ymhelaethu ar hynny.
|
Ms Elin:
I think what we were referring to was that student welfare can be a
broad-ranging issue, and it’s difficult to define exactly
what that could entail. For example, in universities, some people
provide counselling, financial advice, housing advice, and
peer-to-peer mentoring programmes in which there are students who
help you to settle in at the start of university, and so on, and we
think that students should have the right to access that support
through the medium of Welsh. So, I wouldn’t want to see it
limited or restricted, because, as we’ve said in the past,
when you have a list, you’re going to miss out certain
issues. But, if changes are to be made to standards, then perhaps
we could expand upon the kinds of areas that that welfare support
would cover, so that it’s not just counselling, although
that’s crucially important, of course, because there is a
shortage of counselling provision through the medium of Welsh, and
that’s a general problem across Wales, but that we could
expand that.
|
[74]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydy’r un peth yn wir
ynglŷn â’r trafodaethau dros y llety? A ydych
chi’n hapus gyda sut mae’r safonau wedi newid yng
nghyd-destun hynny? Achos fydd dal ddim sicrwydd bod y llety
cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cael ei ystyried, dim ond y bydd gyda
chi’r hawl i roi hynny gerbron fel rhywbeth yr ydych chi ei
eisiau i’r brifysgol ei wneud.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Is the same true for the discussions concerning halls
of residence? Are you content with the way the standards have
changed in that context? Because there will still be no certainty
that Welsh-medium accommodation will be considered, only that you
have the right to put it forward as something that you want the
university to do.
|
[75]
Ms Elin: Mae wedi cael ei eirio’n od, roeddwn
i’n meddwl, achos rydych chi’n gallu gofyn, ond nid wyf
yn meddwl y bydd y brifysgol yn rhoi. Felly, yn amlwg,
byddai’n well petai hynny’n cael ei eirio fel
darpariaeth i fyfyrwyr allu cael llety cyfrwng Cymraeg. Felly,
byddai hwnnw’n newid y byddem ni’n ei groesawu,
petai—
|
Ms Elin:
The wording is quite strange, I thought, because you can request
Welsh-medium accommodation, but there’s no requirement on the
university to provide that. So, I think it would be better if that
were worded as a provision for students to be able to access
Welsh-medium accommodation. So, that would be a change that we
would welcome, if it were—
|
[76]
Bethan Jenkins:
Efallai ei fod yn cael ei egluro fel
hynny oherwydd na fyddan nhw’n gallu rhoi llety Cymraeg i bob
un sydd efallai’n gofyn am hynny mewn prifysgol benodedig;
efallai ei bod yn haws i, er enghraifft, Aberystwyth ei wneud, ond
efallai nid ar gyfer prifysgol arall.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Perhaps that’s been clarified in that way
because the universities perhaps can’t provide Welsh-medium
accommodation for all those who request it; it might be easier for
Aberystwyth, for example, but not as easy for other
universities.
|
[77]
Ms Elin: Rydw i’n meddwl dylai’r dewis fod
yno. Un o’r pethau gyda'r safonau yw bod y comisiynydd yn
gallu gweithio gyda’r prifysgolion i weld os ydy’r
rheoliadau yn mynd i weithio. Er enghraifft, o ran staff cyfrwng
Cymraeg, roeddech chi’n ei ddweud gynnau, ‘A oes digon
o staff yna?’ Un peth mae rhai prifysgolion yn ei wneud yw
rhoi contract i staff gyda’r ddealltwriaeth bod yr aelod yna
o staff yn mynd i ddysgu’r Gymraeg mewn tair, pump, weithiau
mwy, o flynyddoedd er mwyn datblygu’r gweithlu sy’n
gallu siarad Cymraeg mewn prifysgolion. Yn yr un modd, drwy
roi’r cynnig yna i fyfyrwyr allu aros mewn llety lle maen
nhw’n gallu siarad drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, rŷch chi yn
mynd i ddatblygu’r ddarpariaeth yna sydd ar gael. Ond petai
prifysgol wir yn cael problem yn llenwi llety i fyfyrwyr Cymraeg
yna byddai modd i’r comisiynydd weithio gyda nhw ar hynny.
Ond os nad yw yn y safonau i ddechrau ni fydd yr oblygiad yna arnyn
nhw i hyd yn oed trio.
|
Ms
Elin: I think the choice should be there. One of the things
about the standards is that the commissioner can work with the
universities to see whether the regulations are going to work. For
example, in terms of Welsh-speaking staff, you were saying earlier,
‘Are there enough staff there?’ What some universities
are doing is they have a contract for staff on the understanding
that that member of staff is going to learn Welsh in three, five,
sometimes more, years in order to develop the workforce that can
speak Welsh in universities. In the same way, by providing that
choice to students to be able to stay in accommodation where they
can speak Welsh, you’re going to develop that provision
that’s available. But if universities really had a problem in
filling accommodation for Welsh-speaking students there would be a
way for the commissioner to work with them on that. But if
it’s not in the standards to begin with that obligation will
not be on them to even try.
|
[78]
Bethan Jenkins:
A’ch sylwad wedyn ynglŷn
â’r ffaith nad yw’r rheoliadau yn cynnwys y gallu
wedyn i drafod cynnwys yr addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, yn
ôl beth rydw i’n ei ddeall, a ydy hynny’n
rhywbeth—? Rydych chi’n gallu trafod yr hyn sydd o fewn
y categori yma ond nid cynnwys yr hyn rydych chi yn ei ddysgu yn y
brifysgol.
|
Bethan Jenkins: And then there’s your comment on the
fact that the regulations don’t include the right to discuss
the content of education through the medium of Welsh, from what I
understand. Is that something—? You can discuss what’s
included within this category but you don’t have the right to
discuss the content of what you’re taught in the
university.
|
[79]
Ms Elin: Rydw i’n meddwl, o ran beth roeddem
ni’n ei ddeall, nad yw’r safonau’n gallu cyffwrdd
â’r ddarpariaeth ddysgu ei hun. Felly, yn amlwg, beth
rydym ni’n moyn gweld ar wahân i’r safonau yma yw
bod y Llywodraeth yn ariannu darpariaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn
iawn mewn addysg uwch ond hefyd yn y sector ôl-orfodol i gyd
a gwneud datblygiadau eraill. Un o’r pethau rydym ni wedi bod
yn edrych arno yw’r strategaeth 1 miliwn o siaradwyr. Eto,
mae datblygu gweithlu sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn ein prifysgolion
yn hollbwysig ar gyfer honno, ond hefyd drwy rhoi darpariaeth
addysg Gymraeg i fyfyrwyr fel eu bod nhw’n gallu
datblygu’r sgiliau i weithio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a byw
drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y dyfodol. Felly, rwy’n meddwl o
ran y ddarpariaeth addysg ei hun mae angen gwneud pethau tu allan
i’r safonau i ddatblygu hynny.
|
Ms Elin:
I think, from our understanding, that the standards can’t
touch the teaching provision itself. So, clearly, what we want to
see separate to this is that the Government funds Welsh-medium
education fully in higher education but also in the post-compulsory
sector and makes other developments. One of the things we’ve
been looking at is the strategy of 1 million Welsh speakers. Again,
developing a workforce that speaks Welsh in our universities is
vital for that, but also by providing Welsh-medium education to
students so that they can develop those skills to work through the
medium of Welsh and live though the medium of the Welsh language.
So, I think in terms of the education provision itself
there’s a need to do things outside the standards to develop
that.
|
[80]
Dr Trystan: Mae’r gwaith mae’r coleg Cymraeg
wedi ei wneud dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf ym maes darpariaeth
cyfrwng Cymraeg wedi bod yn sylweddol iawn a beth rydym ni wedi ei
weld ar draws ystod o feysydd fel pynciau iechyd neu waith
cymdeithasol neu’r gwyddorau caled bod yna ddatblygiad
sylweddol wedi bod o ran darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg. Ond, yn ein
tyb ni, ac wrth gynllunio beth rydym ni yn ei ddweud yn ein cynllun
academaidd ni, a fydd yn cael ei lansio ddiwedd y mis hwn, mae gan
fyfyrwyr yr hawl i addysg uwch cyfrwng Cymraeg o'r radd flaenaf.
Ond, wrth feddwl am yr hawl honno, a ydy hynny’n golygu bod
gan y myfyriwr yr hawl ym mhob un o brifysgolion Cymru i wneud pob
un o'r cyrsiau neu efallai a ydy e’n fwy call ac yn rhesymol,
os ŷch chi am sicrhau addysg o safon, ein bod ni’n
edrych yn y maes hwn ein bod ni’n mynd i ddatblygu
darpariaeth yn fan hyn ac yn fan hyn ac yn fan hyn? Felly, mae yna
ystod o opsiynau ac mae dewisiadau gan y myfyrwyr. Os ydyn
nhw’n dymuno astudio cyfran neu’r cyfan o’u cwrs
hwy yn Gymraeg maen nhw’n gallu gwneud hynny mewn amrywiol
gyd-destunau yng Nghymru. O reidrwydd, nid yw’r ddarpariaeth
sydd ar gael yn y Gymraeg yn mynd i fod mor helaeth â’r
ddarpariaeth sydd ar gael yn y Saesneg. Ond wrth weithio
gyda’r prifysgolion o dan nawdd ac arweiniad Llywodraeth
Cymru mae yna fodd i sicrhau bod y myfyriwr hwnnw sydd eisiau
cymhwyso yn y gyfraith neu mewn meddygaeth neu mewn fferylliaeth yn
gallu gwneud hynny nawr ac mae hynny’n gam sylweddol iawn
ymlaen o hyd yn oed pum mlynedd yn ôl pan nad oedd y
cyfleoedd yna ar gael tu hwnt, efallai, i’r dyniaethau
a’r celfyddydau ac ambell bwnc arall fel
gwleidyddiaeth.
|
Dr
Trystan: The work that the coleg Cymraeg has done over
the past five years in the area of Welsh-medium provision has been
very substantial and what we have seen across a range of areas such
as health or social work or in the hard sciences is that there has
been significant development in terms of Welsh-medium provision.
But, in our view, and as we plan what we say in our academic plan,
which is to be launched at the end of this month, students have the
right to Welsh-medium higher education of the highest quality. But,
in considering that right, does that mean that the student has a
right in all Welsh universities to study all of those courses or
perhaps would it be more reasonable that, if you want to ensure
quality education, we look in this particular area that we are
going to develop provision here, here and here? So, there is range
of options and students do have choices. If they want to study a
percentage or all of their course through the medium of Welsh then
they can do that in various contexts within Wales. Obviously, the
Welsh-medium provision available isn’t going to be as broad
as the English-medium provision. But in working with the
universities under the auspices of the Welsh Government there is a
means of ensuring that those students who want to qualify in
pharmacy, medicine or the law can do so now and that’s a
significant step forward from the situation even five years ago
when those opportunities didn’t exist outwith, perhaps, the
humanities and the arts and a few other subjects such as
politics.
|
[81]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. A oes unrhyw
gwestiynau eraill gan Aelodau? Grêt. Felly, diolch yn fawr
iawn am eich tystiolaeth y bore yma. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd
hynny’n helpu gyda fframio ein hymateb i’r rheoliadau
ac rwy’n siŵr y byddwn ni’n eich gweld eto yn y
dyfodol pan fyddwn ni’n edrych ar bynciau eraill. Diolch yn
fawr iawn. Byddem ni’n cael egwyl nawr hyd nes fod y
Gweinidog yn dod mewn i drafod y strategaeth. Diolch yn fawr
iawn.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. Are there any other
questions from Members? Great. Thank you very much for your
evidence this morning. I’m sure that will assist with the
framing of our response to the regulations and I’m sure that
we’ll see you again in the future when we’ll be looking
at other issues. Thank you very much. We’ll now take a short
break until the Minister comes in to discuss the strategy. Thank
you very much.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 09:41 a
10:17.
The
meeting adjourned between 09:41 and 10:17.
|
Rheoliadau
Safonau’r Gymraeg (Rhif 6) 2017: Craffu ar Waith Gweinidog y
Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes
The Welsh Language Standards (No. 6) Regulations 2017: Scrutiny of
the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language
|
[82]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydym ni’n
mynd i eitem 3 ar agenda heddiw, sef rheoliadau safonau’r
Gymraeg a chraffu ar waith Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes.
Croeso i chi yma heddiw. Mae gennym, wrth gwrs, Alun Davies,
Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, Bethan Webb, dirprwy
gyfarwyddwr is-adran y Gymraeg, ac Alan Jones, pennaeth y gangen
ddeddfwriaeth iaith Gymraeg. Diolch i chi am ddod
heddiw.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much. We go to item 3 on today’s
agenda, the Welsh language standards regulations and scrutiny of
the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language. Welcome to
you here today. We have Alun Davies, the Minister for Lifelong
Learning and Welsh Language here, Bethan Webb, the deputy director
of the Welsh language division, and Alan Jones, head of the Welsh
language legislation branch. Thank you for attending today.
|
[83]
Fel gwnes i ofyn i’r tystion yn
gynharach, a allech chi jest amlinellu i ni yn fras pam rydych
chi’n credu bod y newidiadau yr ydych chi wedi eu gwneud
i’r rheoliadau yma yn gryfach na’r hyn a oedd yna
o’r blaen? A ydych chi’n hyderus, felly, bydd yna
gymeradwyaeth o’r rheoliadau yma, neu a oes angen, efallai,
mynd nôl i edrych ar wneud mwy o newidiadau yng nghyd-destun
rhai o’r sylwadau yr ydym ni wedi’u clywed gan y
myfyrwyr a chan y sefydliadau yn hynny o beth? Diolch yn fawr
iawn.
|
As I asked the
witnesses earlier, could you just outline to us broadly why you
think the changes that you’ve made to these regulations are
stronger than what was there before? Are you confident, therefore,
that these regulations will be approved, or is there a need,
perhaps, to return to them and make more changes in the context of
some of the comments that we’ve heard from students and
organisations in that respect? Thank you very much.
|
[84]
Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol
Oes (Alun Davies): Diolch
i chi, Gadeirydd, a diolch i’r pwyllgor am y gwahoddiad i
ymuno â chi y bore yma. Rydym ni’n cofio ac yn gwybod
hanes y regulations yma a’r safonau yr ydym wedi bod
yn delio â nhw. Rydym ni hefyd yn cofio bod y safonau yma
wedi methu yn y Cynulliad. Nid ydw i’n credu ei fod e’n
iawn i Lywodraeth fynd â rheoliadau i’r Cynulliad,
colli pleidlais, ac wedyn ailgyflwyno’r rheoliadau heb gymryd
sylw o’r ffaith ein bod ni wedi colli’r bleidlais. So,
mae’n rhaid i ni nid jest ymateb drwy ailgyflwyno, ond cynnal
trafodaethau, siarad, a deall pam rydym ni wedi colli’r
bleidlais. Mae’n rhaid cydnabod ein bod ni wedi colli’r
bleidlais a chydnabod nad oedd y rheoliadau yn ddigonol fel yr
oedden nhw, ac wedyn ystyried pa fath o newidiadau sydd eu hangen
arnom ni er mwyn cymryd sylw o bleidlais yr Aelodau yn y Cynulliad
yn ôl ym mis Mawrth. Rydw i’n gobeithio ein bod ni wedi
gwneud hynny.
|
The Minister
for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language (Alun Davies): Thank
you, Chair, and thank you to the committee for the invitation to
join you this morning. We recall the story behind these regulations
and standards that we’ve been dealing with. We also bear in
mind that these standards were rejected by the Assembly. I
don’t think it would be right for a Government to take
regulations to the Assembly, lose the vote, and reintroduce those
regulations without taking note of that lost vote. So, we had not
only to respond in terms of reintroducing these regulations, but
also in having negotiations, discussions and understanding why that
vote was lost. We have to acknowledge that that vote was lost, and
we have to acknowledge that the regulations as they were drafted
were inadequate, and then consider how changes should be made, and
what sort of changes are required in order to take note of that
vote by Assembly Members back in March. I hope that we’ve
done that.
|
[85]
Rydym ni wedi, fel mae’r
pwyllgor yn ymwybodol, gwneud sawl newid i’r rheoliadau, ac
rydw i wedi darllen trawsgrifiad y drafodaeth y cawsom ni yn y
Cynulliad y llynedd, ac rydw i’n meddwl bod y newidiadau ein
bod ni wedi’u gwneud yn ymateb i’r pwyntiau yr oedd
Aelodau yn eu codi yn ystod y drafodaeth ym mis Mawrth. Rydym ni
wedi eu newid i sicrhau bod yna hawl i fynegi dymuniad i gael llety
cyfrwng Cymraeg. Rydym ni wedi gwneud newidiadau eraill i sicrhau
bod gyda ni’r hawl i fewnrwyd i fyfyrwyr Cymraeg; yr hawl i
weld arwyddion ym mhob un rhan o’r sefydliad yn y Gymraeg;
ychwanegu canolfannau celfyddydol i gwmpas safonau; a hefyd hawl i
diwtor personol sy’n siarad Cymraeg. Felly, dyma’r math
o drafodaeth cawsom ni y llynedd. Dyma’r pwyntiau roedd
Aelodau wedi eu codi yn ystod y drafodaeth, ac rydym ni wedi ymateb
i hynny. Ac oherwydd hynny, buaswn i’n gofyn i Aelodau
Cynulliad i gefnogi’r safonau, i gefnogi’r rheoliadau
fel y maen nhw, fel y maen nhw wedi cael eu diwygio, ac rydym
ni’n gallu, wedyn, symud ymlaen—symud ymlaen i osod
safonau fydd yn galluogi'r sefydliadau eu hunain i ddechrau’r
broses o gyflwyno’r Gymraeg mewn ffordd fwy eang nag y maen
nhw’n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, ond hefyd galluogi’r
sefydliadau i symud ymlaen i sicrhau bod gyda nhw bolisïau
Cymraeg sy’n galluogi’r rhai ohonom ni sydd am
ddefnyddio ein Cymraeg ni i wneud hynny fel rhan o’r broses o
fyw a bod yn rhan o’r sefydliadau yma.
|
As the
committee will be aware, we’ve made a number of changes to
the regulations, and I’ve read the transcript of the
discussion that we had in the Assembly last year, and I do think
that the changes that we’ve introduced do respond to the
points raised by Members during that debate in March. We have made
changes to ensure that there is a right to request Welsh-medium
accommodation. We have made other changes in order to ensure that
we have a right to a student intranet through the medium of Welsh;
a right to have signage through the medium of Welsh in
institutions; we’ve added arts centres to the standards; and
a right to a Welsh-speaking personal tutor. So these are the kind
of discussions that we had last year. These are the points raised
by Members during that debate, and we have responded to those. And,
as a result of that, I would ask Assembly Members to support these
standards, to support the regulations as they are currently drafted
and as they have been amended, and then we can move forward in
order to put in place standards that will enable the institutions
themselves to start the process of introducing the Welsh language
more broadly than they currently do, but also enabling the
institutions to move forward to ensure that they have Welsh
language policies that enable those of us who want to use the Welsh
language to do that as part of the process of being part of those
HE institutions.
|
[86]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch am hynny. Rwy’n credu
bod Aelodau’n clywed yr hyn rydych chi’n ei ddweud
ynglŷn ag eisiau pasio nhw er mwyn gweithredu, ond mae dal i
fod rhai cwestiynau yng nghyd-destun yr hyn sy’n cael ei
gynnwys yn y newidiadau, sef bod UCMC yn dweud bod yna amwysedd
ynglŷn ag ansawdd llety a sut, wedyn, maen nhw’n gallu
dweud eu bod nhw am gael y llety hynny, ond nid oes gorfodaeth ar y
sefydliad hwnnw i roi llety trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. A oes yna
unrhyw beth rydych chi’n gallu ei ddweud ynglŷn â
pham roeddech chi wedi defnyddio’r derminoleg hynny yng
nghyd-destun y llety?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you for that. I think Members are hearing what
you’re saying and want to pass them in order to implement
them, but there are still some questions in the context of
what’s included in the changes, namely the NUS say that there
is ambiguity in terms of quality of accommodation and how, then,
they can say that they want that accommodation, but there’s
no obligation on that organisation to provide accommodation through
the medium of Welsh. Do you have anything to say about why you use
that terminology in the context of accommodation?
|
[87]
Alun Davies:
Rydym ni wedi gwneud hynny er mwyn
sicrhau bod gennym ni safonau sy’n galluogi pobl i
ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg, ond hefyd sy’n rhesymol i’r
colegau a sefydliadau weithredu polisi realistig Cymraeg. Rydym ni
i gyd yn gwybod—fel rhai ohonom ni sy’n siarad ac yn
defnyddio’r Gymraeg bob dydd—rydym ni i gyd yn gwybod
ein bod ni eisiau byw mewn llety neu gymuned lle mae’n bosibl
i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg fel rhan o’n bywydau pob dydd,
ond rydym ni hefyd yn realistig am ein gallu i wneud hynny. Mi
fuasai hi'r peth rhwyddaf yn y byd i mi, fel rhywun a oedd wedi
mwynhau byw ym Mhantycelyn, mewn neuadd breswyl Cymraeg, pan oeddwn
i yn y coleg yn Aberystwyth, i ddweud bod gan bob un ohonom
ni’r hawl i wneud yr un peth, a’r peth rhwyddaf yn y
byd byddai gwneud hynny, ond nid yw’n realistig ac nid
yw’n bosibl i weithredu hynny. Nid wyf eisiau gosod cyfraith
gwlad os nad yw cyfraith y wlad yn gallu cael ei weithredu mewn
ffordd fydd yn ein galluogi ni i ddefnyddio ein Cymraeg ni. Beth
rwyf eisiau ei weld yw hawliau Cymraeg rydym ni’n gallu eu
gweithredu ac nid hawliau nad ydym ni’n gallu eu gweithredu,
achos nid yw hawliau felly yn werth eu cael.
|
Alun
Davies: I’ve done that in order to ensure that we have
standards that enable people to use the Welsh language, but that
are also reasonable for the institutions and the colleges, so that
a realistic policy can be implemented. Those of us who use the
Welsh language on a daily basis all know that we want to live in
accommodation or in a community where it’s possible to use
the Welsh language as part of our daily lives, but we are also
realistic about the opportunities to do that. It would be the
easiest thing of all for me, as someone who enjoyed living in the
Pantycelyn hall of residence, a Welsh-medium hall of residence,
when I was in university in Aberystwyth, to say that each and every
one of us has a right to exactly the same provision. It would be
the easiest thing of all to do that, but it’s not realistic,
and it’s not possible to implement that. And what I
don’t want to do is to put statute in place that cannot be
implemented in a way that will enable us to make use of the Welsh
language. What I want to do is to have rights that are
implementable, rather than rights that we can’t implement,
because such rights are of no value whatsoever.
|
[88]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jeremy.
|
[89]
Jeremy Miles:
Hoffwn i ymestyn y thema yna, os gaf
i. Fe wnaeth UCMC sôn hefyd nad oes cyfeiriad yn y rhestr at
ohebiaeth gyda myfyrwyr ynglŷn â ffioedd,
ysgoloriaethau, ac ati. A wnaethoch chi gymryd penderfyniad penodol
i beidio â chynnwys y rheini?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Just to expand on this, if I may, the NUS also mentioned
that there was no reference in the list to correspondence for
students on fees and scholarships and so on. Did you take a
specific decision not to include those?
|
[90]
Alun Davies:
Rydym ni wedi edrych ar beth
sy’n bosibl a beth nad yw’n bosibl, ac os ydych
chi’n edrych trwy’r safonau, mi fyddwch chi’n
gweld ein bod ni’n delio â rhannau o waith y
sefydliadau fydd yn galluogi pobl i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg lle
bynnag maen nhw fel rhan o’r sefydliad. Felly, rwy’n
gwybod bod rhai wedi dweud bod eisiau ymestyn y safonau i’r
gwaith addysgu hefyd, ond rydym ni hefyd yn gwybod nad yw’r
safonau i fod i ddelio â hynny. Nid dyna pam rydym ni wedi
mabwysiadu’r safonau yma. Felly, rwy’n hyderus fod
paragraff 31 yn cynnwys y gweithgareddau pwysicaf o ran y berthynas
rhwng y corff, y sefydliad, a’r myfyrwyr. Oes, mae yna
rai enghreifftiau lle mae gohebiaeth
rhwng y sefydliad a’r unigolyn, y myfyriwr, yn cael ei dal
gan safonau eraill pan mae’n dod i drafod gohebiaeth. Felly,
rydw i’n eithaf sicr bod y safonau yma’n gryf ac wedi
cael eu cryfhau ac yn cynnig hawliau sy’n gallu cael eu
gweithredu. Rydw i’n awyddus erbyn hyn i symud ymlaen a
gweithredu. Rydw i eisiau hefyd, ac rydw i’n gwybod nad
yw’r Cadeirydd eisiau i fi siarad gormod ar hyn,
ond—
|
Alun
Davies: We have looked at what is possible and what
isn’t, and if you look through the standards, you will see
that we deal with those parts of the work of the institution that
will enable people to use the Welsh language wherever they are as
part of those institutions. And I know that some have said that we
need to extend the standards to teaching, too, but we also know
that the standards aren’t there to deal with that issue.
That’s not why we adopted these standards. Therefore, I am
confident that paragraph 31 does include the most important
activities in terms of the relationship between the institution and
the students. Yes, there are
some examples where correspondence between the institution and the
individual, the student, is captured by other standards when it
comes to the issue of correspondence. So, I am quite content that
these standards are robust and have been strengthened and do
provide rights that are implementable. I am now eager to move
forward and to implement these standards. I want to also, and I
know that the Chair doesn’t want me to speak at too great a
length about this issue, but—
|
[91]
Bethan Jenknis:
Nid wyf wedi dweud unrhyw beth eto.
[Chwerthin.]
|
Bethan
Jenkins: I haven’t said anything yet.
[Laughter.]
|
[92]
Alun Davies:
Mae dy wyneb di yn dweud digon.
[Chwerthin.] Beth rydw i’n awyddus i’w wneud yw
gosod y safonau yma fel cyfraith, ac wedyn gweithredu'r gyfraith.
Byddaf, ym mis Mai, gobeithio—yn nes ymlaen yn y
flwyddyn—yn cyhoeddi Papur Gwyn ar gyfraith y Gymraeg.
Rwy’n gobeithio y byddwn ni’n cael mwy o drafodaeth,
trafodaeth ehangach a chyfoethog, am y math o gyfraith rydym eisiau
ei gweld i ddarparu a sicrhau hawliau, lle a statws y Gymraeg.
Felly, rydw i’n awyddus iawn i weithredu’r safonau fel
y maen nhw heddiw, fel rydym wedi’u diwygio, ar ôl
cydnabod pleidlais y Cynulliad, a symud ymlaen. Wedyn, os oes yna
broblem ddifrifol gyda’r rhain, neu unrhyw un o’r
safonau sydd gyda ni, mi fydd hi’n bosibl, ar ôl iddyn
nhw gael eu gweithredu, i ni ddychwelyd i’r safonau, ac mi
fydd gyda chi'r hawl fel pwyllgor, wrth gwrs, i ystyried hynny ac
wedyn awgrymu sut rydym yn newid y safonau ar ôl dysgu sut
maen nhw’n gweithio yn y byd go iawn.
|
Alun
Davies: Your face says it all. [Laughter.] What I am
eager to do is to put these standards into law and then implement
that law. In May, hopefully—later this year—I will be
publishing a White Paper on the legislation surrounding the Welsh
language. I hope that we will have broader and richer discussions
about the kind of law that we want to see in order to provide and
secure the rights and the status of the Welsh language. So, I am
very eager to implement these standards as they currently stand, as
they have been amended, in recognition of that vote taken in the
Assembly, and make progress. Then, if there is a grave problem with
these or any of the standards, then it would be possible, after
they’ve been implemented, for us to return to them, and you
as a committee, of course, will have a right to scrutinise and
consider that and make suggestions as to how we could change the
standards, once we’ve seen how they work in real
life.
|
[93]
Bethan Jenkins: Lee.
|
[94]
Lee Waters: I’ve heard you say a number of times that
you find that the whole standards approach overly bureaucratic and
you’ve set out measures to deal with that. I’m just
looking at the standards in front of us. Standard 160 says:
|
[95]
‘You must keep a record of the number of members of staff who
wear a badge…at the end of each financial year.’
|
[96]
I wonder, given your general criticisms, whether or not you think
it’s appropriate in law to set out requirements to record the
number of badges issued indicating people can speak Welsh.
|
[97]
Alun Davies: I try, as a Minister, to engage in conversation
and to have a discursive conversation about how we legislate and
the nature of our legislation and the nature of our politics. I
think that’s generally a good thing, rather than simply
reading ‘lines to take’ and taking a very narrow and
conservative view of questions and the sorts of conversations we
have. I think sometimes my use of language can be somewhat
colourful and I wouldn’t want to mislead people in saying
that I think the whole approach that we’re taking is not the
correct approach. However, you are right, Lee. You are absolutely
right in what I said some weeks ago about the approach that’s
taken. I think I said it on the record when we are adopting this
legislation some time ago and some members may remember that. I
think we have a responsibility now to look at how we legislate for
the Welsh language, to look afresh when we publish the strategy
later in the spring and then to look at the sort of legislation and
the structure of legislation we want and the architecture of how we
regulate that and how we ensure that we have a balance whereby
those of us who wish to speak Welsh and use our Welsh in everyday
life have the opportunity to do that and have the opportunity to do
that without feeling that we are creating an obligation on the
person we’re dealing with, without feeling at all embarrassed
or shy to do that, and at the same time recognising the capacity of
the community in which we live to deliver those services for us as
Welsh speakers. So, we need to find that balance and we need to do
that in a way that encourages people to use Welsh, breaks down
barriers, breaks down walls and creates the language as a bridge
and not a barrier for people. We need to find ways of doing that in
a way that is both efficient and also in a way that promotes the
language, rather than making it into either a weapon of war or a
means of creating divisions in our society that are unnecessary.
So, we will be looking at all of those issues. I hope the White
Paper will spark a debate. I don’t intend to narrow that
debate down at all. I hope the White Paper will lead to a
conversation that we can have over a period of time. I intend to
publish it as early as we can in, perhaps, as I say, spring or
early summer, and then run the debate through the summer into
autumn of this year and have a very rich debate about how we ensure
that we have a statutory underpinning of the use of Welsh that is
practical, reasonable and which encourages people and makes them
feel comfortable in using the Welsh language in whatever
circumstance they find themselves.
|
10:30
|
[98]
Lee Waters: So, you feel that using statute to require the
reporting of badges issued meets that test of balance.
|
[99]
Alun Davies: There are a number and a range of standards that will
deliver different aspects of our ambition. Some of those standards
will and may appear to be overly onerous, and others will appear to
be less onerous. I think you’ve had the nature of that
conversation with other witnesses you’ve seen. At the moment,
it is my intention and my objective to seek a balance between those
two extremes. I think it is possible, certainly, to pick out one
standard and say, ‘Let’s look at this’, but I
think when you do that, you take it out of context. What I would
say to you, Lee, is this: that it is reasonable to understand how
many staff in an institution are able to speak Welsh, how they
identify themselves so that people are able to use the Welsh
language without feeling that they’re placing unnecessary
burdens on people, and for people to feel comfortable to open a
conversation in Welsh if they don’t know the person
they’re speaking to. So, there are reasons behind that, but I
recognise fully that, when you read that, it can appear to be an
overly onerous and cumbersome requirement. I think what we need to
be able to is not simply look at standard 160 alone, but take the
whole of those standards and then say, ‘Is this a reasonable
approach to ensuring that we meet our objectives?’ I think
that’s a much richer debate, and I think it’s a more
profound debate, and that’s certainly the debate that I would
like to have over the rest of this year.
|
[100]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Suzy.
|
[101]
Suzy Davies: I think Lee’s question was really about
what’s reasonable and proportionate. I just wanted to ask you
a very specific question about why it’s reasonable and
proportionate to bring these standards into arts centres in
colleges and universities, but not into leisure centres in colleges
and universities, bearing in mind particularly that sport is one of
those areas of public life where development of the Welsh language
is likely to be something we’re all expecting to
happen.
|
[102]
Alun Davies: I think most leisure centres are actually covered by
the similar standards on local authorities.
|
[103]
Suzy Davies: But that’s local authorities. I’m talking
about university and college ones.
|
[104]
Alun Davies: I understand that. The point that was made to us
during the conversations we had following the defeat of the
standards last year was that this was a gap, and that was
identified as a gap and we’ve sought to fill that gap. If
Suzy is saying there are other gaps, then I think that’s a
reasonable point to make, but it wasn’t made to us during the
conversations that we had on these regulations, and as a
consequence it isn’t included in those regulations. But let
me say this: what I’m seeking to do is, as you say, find
something that is reasonable, proportionate and which meets our
ambitions. Now, I think it’s absolutely fair and reasonable
for arts centres, frankly whether they’re on campuses or
not—we’re talking about campuses in this case—to
provide their services bilingually. I think that’s a fair and
reasonable requirement for public bodies to have, and I would
expect leisure centres, frankly, to do that as well. Leisure
centres are covered generally in local government legislation. So,
I think that’s reasonable, I think it’s fair, and I
think it’s proportionate. If there are additional gaps, then
that’s a conversation that we can have subsequently, after
we’ve accepted these regulations. I’m always happy to
review the legislation. I think reviewing legislation is something
that all of us, as legislators, need to do, and need to do more
often that we actually do.
|
[105] Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you for that. It
was just that the NUS did introduce that in evidence, so I thought
I’d raise it with you.
|
[106]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Lee.
|
[107]
Lee Waters: Can I just ask you a question on process? Cymdeithas
yr Iaith in their written evidence have made, I think, quite a
constructive suggestion about trying to avoid the situation that
we’ve just been in where regulations are turned down and
there’s been a delay. They argue in their evidence, which is
pack page 141 for other members of the committee, that it would be
sensible in future that you introduce regulations in draft form and
the committee looks at them at the pre-consultation stage and
invites comments from stakeholders to try to investigate and invite
any policy clashes or issues at that stage. I wonder what you think
about that suggestion.
|
[108] Alun Davies: I
think you’re absolutely right. It’s a fair and
reasonable suggestion to make. Any legislator always has the
right to turn down the Government’s seeking of
legislation and the Government doesn’t have a right to its
legislation: the Government has to persuade and has to argue its
case. And if it wins, it wins, and if it loses, it loses. It has to
recognise that no Government has a right to legislation; we have to
win that and argue our case. So, I’ve no qualms or issues at
all with the National Assembly defeating the Government last year.
The National Assembly spoke; the Government needed to listen, and I
hope we have listened. So, there’s no issue with that at
all.
|
[109] But on the wider
point, I spent some time on the Constitutional and Legislative
Affairs Committee, as Members here will know, and I think it is
right and proper that we seek to extend the way we legislate and
that we will publish secondary legislation. Draft primary
legislation is quite often published, of course, for exactly the
scrutiny that you suggest. Secondary legislation is less commonly
published in that way. But Members may know that, as an education
Minister, I will be publishing next month the draft code on ALN,
additional learning needs, which will be a piece of secondary
legislation in order to deliver the primary legislation
that’s currently in front of the Assembly. So, I think where
there are circumstances where that can happen, that’s right
and proper that it does happen. It’s a good, constructive
suggestion and I’m very happy to take it forward.
|
[110]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Eto, o dystiolaeth
UCMC—ac fe wnaethom ni
godi hyn gyda nhw—fe
wnaethon nhw ddweud bod y term ‘lles myfyrwyr’ yn un
eang iawn, ac er nad ydyn nhw eisiau gweld y diffiniad yn cael ei
ddileu o’r rhestr, maen nhw eisiau tynnu sylw at y ffaith ei
fod e’n golygu mwy iddyn nhw na’r hyn sy’n rhan
o’r diffiniad sydd gennych chi, sef cymorth ariannol, gwasanaethau cwnsela, cymorth
tai, ac yn y blaen. A fyddech
chi’n ystyried, efallai, y sylwadau yma i helpu myfyrwyr i
ddeall yn iawn beth fydd yr hyn y bydden nhw’n gallu ei gael
o’r safon benodol hynny, pe na fyddai cwnsela ac yn y blaen
yn rhan o hynny, neu a yw e’n gallu bod yn rhan o’r
diffiniad fel y mae’n sefyll?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Again, from the NUS Wales
evidence—and we raised this with them—they said that
the term ‘student welfare’ was a very broad one, and
even though they didn’t want the definition being taken away
from the list, they wanted to draw attention to the fact that it
means more to them than that which forms part of your definition,
namely financial assistance, counselling, housing support, and so
on. Would you consider, perhaps, these comments to assist students
to understand correctly what they will be able to have under that
specific standard, if counselling and so forth wasn’t part of
that, or whether it can be part of the definition as it stands?
|
[111]
Alun Davies:
Rydw i’n meddwl bod y term
‘lles myfyrwyr’ yn un eang iawn, ac rŷm ni’n
ei ddefnyddio fe oherwydd ei fod yn derm eang iawn.
Rydw i’n ffyddiog bod hynny o
fudd i fyfyrwyr. Gall y term hefyd gynnwys y gwasanaethau
mae’r corff addysg yn darparu i fyfyrwyr yng nghyd-destun
lles iechyd neu wasanaethau cwnsela mewn meysydd ehangach eraill,
ac rydw i’n hyderus iawn bod y term yn un sy’n gallu
cael ei weithredu, ei ddeall gan sefydliadau a myfyrwyr, ac yn derm
y mae pobl yn gyfforddus i’w ddefnyddio.
|
Alun
Davies: I think the term ‘student welfare’ is a
very broad one, and we use it because of its breadth. I am
confident that that will benefit students. The term can also
include the services that the education body provides to students
in the context of health and well-being or counselling services in
other broader areas, and I am confident that that term is one that
can be implemented and can be understood by institutions and
students, and it’s a term that people are comfortable
using.
|
[112]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ond os ydyn nhw’n ffeindio bod
yna broblemau yng nghyd-destun yr hyn mae’r safon yn
caniatáu, a fyddai modd, wedyn, ailedrych ar sut mae’n
cael ei weithredu i lawr y lein, fel rydych chi wedi’i ddweud
yn flaenorol, yng nghyd-destun y canolfannau hamdden?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: But if they find that there are problems in the
context of what the standard allows, would there be a way, then, to
look again at the way it’s implemented down the line, as
you’ve said previously, in the context of leisure
centres?
|
[113]
Alun Davies:
Wrth gwrs, rydw i’n hollol
fodlon ar hynny. Mae yna gwestiwn a fuasai’n rôl
i’r Llywodraeth neu’n rôl i’r Cynulliad,
fel y legislator, i wneud hynny, ac rydw i’n
gyfforddus iawn gyda’r syniad o ailystyried deddfwriaeth pan
mae wedi cael ei gweithredu, a dysgu gwersi. Rydw i’n
gyfforddus iawn gyda’r egwyddor o wneud hynny ac rydw
i’n gyfforddus iawn os yw’r rôl yna’n cael
ei chwarae gan y Cynulliad neu gan y Llywodraeth. Ond rydw
i’n credu ei bod yn bwysig nad ydym jest yn cael y
ddeddfwriaeth, ond yn deall sut mae’n cael ei gweithredu.
Dyna ran o rôl y drafodaeth ar y Papur Gwyn: edrych ar y
safonau ac nid jest ar un safon ac un rhan o’r rheoliadau,
ond edrych arnyn nhw yn eu cyfanrwydd—a ydy’r system
yma a’r ddarpariaeth ddeddfwriaethol yma yn ein galluogi ni i
gyrraedd ein hamcanion gwleidyddol a’n gweledigaeth ar gyfer
ein hiaith a’n cenedl ni ar gyfer y dyfodol, ac wedyn trafod
hynny. Rydw i’n hapus iawn i gynnal y trafodaethau yma, ac
rydw i’n gyfforddus iawn os yw’r Cynulliad eisiau
gweithredu yn yr un ffordd.
|
Alun
Davies: Of course, I would be quite content with that. There is
a question as to whether it would be a role for the Government or a
role for the Assembly, as the legislator, to do that, and I am
comfortable with this idea of looking again at legislation, once
it’s been implemented, and learning lessons. I’m
comfortable with the principle of doing that and I’m happy
for that role to be played by either the Assembly or the
Government. But I think it’s important that we not only have
legislation in place, but also understand how it’s
implemented and how it works. That is part of the role of the White
Paper: to look at the standards and not just at one standard or one
part of the regulations, but to look at them in their entirety, and
to consider whether this system and this legislative provision is
enabling us to reach our political objectives and our vision for
our language and our nation for the future, and then to discuss
that. I’m happy to hold discussions here and I’d be
more than happy if the Assembly wanted to do likewise.
|
[114]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ond a oes gennych chi farn ar hynny
nawr, oherwydd, fel y mae rhai Aelodau wedi dweud yn barod a rhai
o’r tystion, mae yna flwyddyn wedi bod ers i’r
rheoliadau ddod gerbron yn gyntaf, a blwyddyn, wedyn, lle nad yw
rhai sefydliadau’n gwneud unrhyw beth o gwbl o ran
datblygu’r iaith. A oes
yna ffyrdd, wedyn, gennych chi o ran syniadau i hwyluso’r
broses honno, achos mae hyn yn mynd i fynd nôl at y
comisiynydd nawr, ac wedyn mae’r comisiynydd yn mynd i wneud
mwy o waith? Felly, bydd gweithredu’r rheoliadau eto’n
cymryd mwy o amser yn hynny o beth.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: But do you have a view on that now, because, as some
Members have already said and some witnesses, a year has passed
since the regulations were first introduced, and a year later, some
institutions haven’t done anything at all in terms of
developing the language. Are there ways, then, that you have to
facilitate that process, because this is going to go back to the
commissioner now, and then the commissioner is going to do more
work? So, implementing the regulations will take more time
again.
|
[115]
Alun Davies:
A dyna pam rydw i’n awyddus i
symud ymlaen a gweithredu’r rheoliadau yma,
gweithredu’r safonau yma, ac wedyn ystyried sut y maen
nhw’n cael eu gweithredu ac a ydyn nhw’n cyrraedd y nod
yr ydym wedi’i gosod ar eu cyfer nhw. Rwy’n gobeithio
fy mod i wedi bod yn ddigon clir gyda’r pwyllgor: rwy’n
fodlon ystyried y system. Nid wyf yn credu bod y system yn system
berffaith. Rwy’n credu bod y system yn system gymhleth.
Rwy’n credu ei bod yn or-gymhleth. Rwy’n credu bod
angen ystyried y fframwaith deddfwriaethol sydd gyda ni.
Rwy’n credu bod angen inni ystyried beth mae’r safonau
wedi’i gyflwyno, ac rwy’n credu eu bod nhw wedi
cyflwyno rhyw dipyn, actually; nid wy’n credu eu bod
nhw wedi methu. Ond rydw i yn meddwl—ac rwy’n mynd yn
ôl at gwestiwn cynharach gan Lee—fod y system yn
or-fiwrocrataidd ac yn or-gymhleth a bod yn rhaid inni ystyried sut
yr ydym yn newid y system, gan ystyried mai amcan y system yw
gweithredu hawliau i ni, sef defnyddwyr y Gymraeg.
|
Alun
Davies: And that’s why I’m eager to implement these
regulations and to implement these standards, and then consider how
that implementation is working and whether they achieve our
objectives for them. I do hope that I have been quite clear with
the committee that I am happy to consider the system. I don’t
believe that the system is perfect. I think it is complex. I think
it’s overly complex, if truth be told. I think we need to
consider the legislative framework that is currently in place. I
think we need to consider what the standards have achieved, and I
think they have achieved a fair bit, actually; I don’t think
that they have failed. But I do think—and I return to an
earlier question from Lee—that the system is overly
bureaucratic and overly complex, and we must consider how we can
change the system, bearing in mind that the objective here is to
provide rights for people to use the Welsh language.
|
[116]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr iawn am y sesiwn hynny
ar y rheoliadau.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much for that session on the
regulations.
|
10:41
|
Ymchwiliad i Strategaeth y Gymraeg Newydd Llywodraeth
Cymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 9
Inquiry into the Welsh Government’s new Welsh Language
Strategy: Evidence Session 9
|
[117]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rydym yn symud ymlaen yn awr at eitem
4, sef yr ymchwiliad i strategaeth y Gymraeg ddrafft Llywodraeth
Cymru. Rydym yn croesawu Iwan Evans i’r bwrdd, sef
uwch-swyddog polisi isadran y Gymraeg. Diolch i chi am ymuno
â ni.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We are now going to move on to item 4, which is the
inquiry into the Welsh Government’s Welsh language strategy.
I welcome Iwan Evans now to the table, who is the senior policy
officer in the Welsh language division. Thank you for joining
us.
|
[118]
Fel yr ydych wedi gweld, yn sicr,
rydym wedi cael tystiolaeth gan drawstoriad o’r gymdeithas,
sydd wedi rhoi barn yng nghyd-destun y strategaeth. Rwyf eisiau
gofyn i chi yn fras ar y cychwyn: beth yw’r rhesymeg dros y
ffigur o 1 filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050, a pha dystiolaeth
a ddefnyddiwyd i sicrhau bod y nod hwnnw’n gyraeddadwy? Beth
yr ŷm ni wedi’i glywed gan lot o bobl yw efallai y
dylai’r targedau a’r meincnodi fod wedi dod ar y
cychwyn cyntaf er mwyn iddyn nhw allu deall yn iawn sut mae’r
nod hynny’n mynd i gael ei gyrraedd gan y Llywodraeth. Felly,
a allwch chi roi ymateb i’r cwestiwn mwyaf—beth
yw’r gair yn y Gymraeg—eang yma, yn hytrach na’r
cwestiynau mwy penodol y bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gofyn yn
y man?
|
As you have
seen, certainly, we’ve received evidence from a cross-section
of society, giving their views in the context of the strategy. I
would just like to ask you generally at the beginning: what is the
rationale for the figure of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and
what evidence base was used to ensure that that aim is achievable?
What we’ve heard from a number of people is that, perhaps,
the targets and the benchmarking should have come at the beginning,
so that they could understand fully how that target is going to be
achieved by the Government. So, could you please respond to the
most—what’s the word in Welsh—broad question,
rather than the more detailed questions that Members will ask
shortly?
|
[119]
Alun Davies:
Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn
absolutely dilys, wrth gwrs: sut ydym ni’n dechrau ar
y drafodaeth yma? Mi oedd y ffigur, wrth gwrs, yn rhan o
faniffesto’r Blaid Lafur, ac mae’r Llywodraeth yn
gweithredu ein hamcanion ni yn y maniffesto. So, mae hynny’n
bwysig i’w nodi. Ond pam oedd e’n y maniffesto—ac
nid jest ym maniffesto Llafur chwaith? Pam yr ŷm ni’n
gwneud hyn? Rydym ni wedi cael polisi iaith ers rhai blynyddoedd
sydd wedi bod yn trio hybu’r Gymraeg a sicrhau dyfodol
i’r Gymraeg. Ond a ydym ni wir wedi llwyddo? Dyna’r
cwestiwn. Mae’n bosibl edrych ar bob math o amcanion ac ar
bob math o dargedau yr ŷm ni wedi’u gosod dros y
blynyddoedd, ac mae’n bosibl dod i sawl casgliad
gwahanol.
|
Alun
Davies: That’s absolutely a valid question, of course, in
terms of how we start this discussion. The figure, of course, was
included in the Labour Party manifesto, and the Government is
implementing our manifesto objectives. So, that’s an
important thing to note. But why was this in the
manifesto—and not just in the Labour manifesto, either? Why
are we doing this? We’ve had a language policy for some years
that has been seeking to promote the Welsh language and secure a
future for the Welsh language. But have we truly succeeded?
That’s the question. One can look at all sorts of objectives
and all sorts of targets that have been set over the years, and one
can come to a number of different conclusions.
|
[120]
Beth oeddem ni am ei wneud oedd
rhywbeth cwbl wahanol i hynny. Roeddem ni eisiau godi ein
huchelgais ni, codi ein gweledigaeth ni, a newid y ffordd yr
ŷm ni’n gweithio fel Llywodraeth ac fel gwlad. Mae
hynny’n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni newid cyd-destun y
drafodaeth. Mae’n rhaid inni newid y cyd-destun yn ei
gyfanrwydd a chreu gweledigaeth gydag uchelgais yn hanfodol ynddi.
Wedyn, mae’n rhaid inni ystyried sut yr ŷm ni’n
gwneud hynny. Mae’n herio ni fel cenedl, fel cymunedau, fel
Llywodraeth ac fel gwleidyddion. Mae’n ein herio ni hefyd fel
Gweinidogion. A ydym ni o ddifri am ddyfodol y Gymraeg, ac a ydym
ni o ddifri fod Cymru yn mynd i fod yn wlad ddwyieithog—o
ddifri? Mae’n rhaid i ddwyieithrwydd olygu mwy na Chymry
Cymraeg yn siarad Saesneg. Mae’n rhaid iddo fod yn fwy na
hynny. Mae hynny’n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni newid nid jest
statws y Gymraeg pan fyddwn ni’n sôn am y gyfraith, ond
statws y Gymraeg mewn pob math o gymuned, mewn mannau cymdeithasol
ac fel rhan o’n cymunedau ar draws Cymru. Mae hynny’n
meddwl bod yn rhaid inni osod uchelgais ar gyfer y Gymraeg. Dyna
beth y mae’r Llywodraeth yma yn trio’i
wneud.
|
What we wanted
to do was something entirely different to that. We wanted to raise
our sights and to raise our vision, and to change the way that we
work as a Government and as a nation. That means that we have to
change the context of the discussion. We have to change the context
entirely and put in place a vision that is ambitious and has
ambition at its heart. We then need to consider how we can achieve
that. It challenges us as a nation, as communities, as a Government
and as politicians. It challenges us as Ministers, too. Are we
serious about the future of the Welsh language, and are we serious
about this concept of Wales being a bilingual nation? Bilingualism,
I think, has to be about more than Welsh speakers speaking English
as well. It has to be about more than that. That means that we have
to change not only the status of the Welsh language in law, but
also the status of the Welsh language in our communities, in social
areas and as part of communities across Wales. That means that we
have to have an ambition for the Welsh language. That is what this
Government is seeking to put in place.
|
[121]
Rydym yn trafod ar hyn o bryd y math
o strategaeth y bydd gyda ni pan fydd yn cael ei chyhoeddi.
Rwy’n gobeithio y byddwn—drwy herio ein hunain fel
Llywodraeth, fel Cynulliad ac fel cenedl—yn gallu dod i
gytundeb ar y Gymraeg: cytundeb ein bod eisiau gweld y Gymraeg fel
rhan o’n bywyd bob dydd ni ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae
hynny’n meddwl newid y ffordd yr ŷm ni’n
gweithredu, ac mae’n rhaid newid y ffordd yr ŷm
ni’n gweithredu. Ac mae hynny’n her i bob un ohonom.
So, dyna pam. Dyna’r rationale, yn fras, o ran pam yr
ŷm ni wedi dewis targed o 1 filiwn—
|
We are
currently discussing the kind of strategy that we will have when it
is published. I hope that we will—through challenging
ourselves as a Government, as an Assembly and as a
nation—come to an agreement on the Welsh language: an
agreement that we want to see the Welsh language being part of our
daily lives in all parts of Wales. That means a change in approach,
and we have to change that approach. And that’s a challenge
for each and every one of us. So, that’s why. That’s
what the rationale, broadly speaking, is as to why we have selected
that target of 1 million—
|
[122]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n deall ei bod yn rhan
o’r maniffesto, ond sut wnaethoch chi ddod i’r
penderfyniad mai 1 filiwn oedd e, yn rhan o’r maniffesto
hynny? A sut ydych chi’n diffinio siaradwr Cymraeg o fewn
hynny hefyd? Achos mae yna gwestiwn wedi dod—
|
Bethan
Jenkins: I understand that it’s part of the manifesto,
but how did you come to a decision that it would be a 1 million, as
part of that manifesto? And how do you define a Welsh speaker
within that figure? Because, a question has—
|
10:45
|
[123]
Alun Davies:
Y rationale oedd, fel yr ydw i
wedi esbonio, herio ein hunain a gosod uchelgais a gweledigaeth
glir.
|
Alun
Davies: As I’ve explained, the rationale was to challenge
ourselves and to have a clear ambition and vision.
|
[124]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ond nid yw hynny yn esbonio pam 1
filiwn yn benodol.
|
Bethan Jenkins: But that
doesn’t explain why it’s 1 million specifically.
|
[125]
Alun Davies:
Oherwydd roeddem ni eisiau ffigwr a
fuasai’n dal dychymyg ac yn ffigwr heriol i ni. Nid oeddwn i
eisiau creu gweledigaeth a oedd yn defnyddio geiriau ond ddim yn
gosod targed clir a tharged realistig. Nid oes pwynt dweud ein bod
ni eisiau creu 1 filiwn—
|
Alun Davies: Because we wanted a
figure that would capture people’s imagination and would be
challenging to us. I didn’t want to put a vision in place
that used words but didn’t set any clear targets and a
realistic target. There’s no point in saying that we want to
create 1 million—
|
[126]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ond ar ba sail oeddech chi’n
penderfynu ei fod e’n realistig, wedyn—yr 1
filiwn?
|
Bethan Jenkins: But on what basis did
you decide that it was realistic—that figure of 1
million?
|
[127]
Alun Davies:
Y drafodaeth oedd ein bod ni’n
credu ei fod yn realistig o ran sut rŷm ni’n newid y
ffordd rŷm ni’n gweithredu.
|
Alun Davies: We had the
discussion that we believed that it was realistic in terms of how
we change our approach.
|
[128]
Bethan Jenkins:
Reit. So, dim o ran
tystiolaeth?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Right.So, it wasn’t evidence-based?
|
[129]
Alun Davies:
Nid wy’n siŵr os oes
tystiolaeth galed sy’n dweud, ‘Os ydych chi’n
gwasgu’r botwm yma, mi fyddwch chi’n creu 1 filiwn o
siaradwyr.’ Ond beth yr ŷm ni’n gwneud yw gosod
gweledigaeth. Ac mae’r weledigaeth yn dod o ymrwymiad y Blaid
Lafur a’r Llywodraeth yma i greu dyfodol i’r Gymraeg
fel rhan o’n cymuned genedlaethol ni yng Nghymru. Dyna o le
mae’n dod. Mae’n dod o weledigaeth ac
uchelgais.
|
Alun Davies: I’m not sure that
you could say that there is hard evidence that states, ‘If
you press this particular button, you will create 1 million Welsh
speakers.’ But what we are doing is putting a vision in
place, and a vision that is based on the Labour Party’s
commitment and this Government’s commitment to creating a
future for the Welsh language as part of our national community
here in Wales. That’s where it’s emerged from. It
emerges from vision and ambition.
|
[130]
Pan rydych chi’n gofyn i fi,
‘Sut wyt ti’n mesur siaradwyr?’—. A gaf i
jest ddweud hyn? Fel Cymry Cymraeg, rŷm ni’n gwastraffu
gormod o’n hamser yn becso amboutu lot fawr o bethau. Ac nid
ydw i erioed wedi clywed sgwrs amboutu sut i ddiffinio rhywun
sy’n siarad Saesneg. Nid ydw i erioed wedi clywed y sgwrs,
erioed wedi gweld, ‘Sut wyt ti’n diffinio rhywun
sy’n siarad Saesneg?’ Ond rydw i’n treulio hanner
fy mywyd yn trafod sut i ddiffinio rhywun sy’n siarad
Cymraeg. Rydym ni’n mynd i ddefnyddio'r sensws. Dyna
yw’r ffordd rydym ni’n ei wneud e ar hyn o bryd. Ond
beth nad ydw i eisiau gwneud yw hyn: nid ydw i eisiau bod yn y
sefyllfa lle rwyf yn pwyntio at un person—‘Cymro’
neu ‘Cymro di-Gymraeg’. Nid ydw i eisiau byw yn y
gymuned ac yn y genedl sy’n gwneud hynny.
|
When you ask
me, ‘How are you going to define Welsh
speaker?’—. And may I just say this? As Welsh speakers,
we waste too much time worrying about a number of different things,
and I’ve never heard a conversation about how you define an
English speaker. I’ve never heard that conversation, and
I’ve never heard anyone ask, ‘How do you define an
English speaker?’ But I spend half of my life discussing how
we define a Welsh speaker. We’re going to use the census.
That’s the approach at the moment. But what I don’t
want to do is this: I don’t want to be in a situation where I
point to one individual and say, ‘You’re a Welsh
speaker’ or ‘You’re a non-Welsh-speaking
Welshman’. I don’t want to live in a nation that does
that.
|
[131]
Rydw i eisiau i bobl deimlo’n
gyfforddus gyda’r Gymraeg. Rydw i eisiau i’r Gymraeg
fod yn bont a ddim yn wal. Ac rydw i eisiau i’r Gymraeg fod
yn rhan o bob un ohonom ni. Mae yna lot fawr o bobl sy’n
deall rhywfaint o Gymraeg, sy’n gyfforddus gyda rhywfaint o
Gymraeg. Mae’n bwysig ein bod ni’n diogelu hynny, a
diogelu pobl i deimlo fel nad oes rhaid iddyn nhw fod yn rhugl er
mwyn piau’r Gymraeg, ac er mwyn i’r Gymraeg fod yn
bwysig iddyn nhw, fel pobl, fel teulu, fel cymuned.
Felly—
|
I want people
to feel comfortable with the Welsh language. I want the Welsh
language to be a bridge rather than a wall. And I want to Welsh
language to be relevant to all of us. There are very many people
who understand some Welsh and are comfortable in using some Welsh.
It’s important that we safeguard that and ensure that people
do feel that they don’t have to be fluent in order to own the
Welsh language and for the Welsh language to be important to them
as individuals, as families and as communities. So—
|
[132]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n credu, jest i
ddeall—
|
Bethan Jenkins: I think, just to
understand—
|
[133]
Alun Davies:
—i ateb y cwestiwn,
yn syml ac yn glir, mi fyddwn ni’n defnyddio’r sensws,
ond rydw i eisiau symud yn bell, bell tu hwnt i’r cwestiwn ei
hun.
|
Alun Davies: —to answer your
question in simple, clear terms, we will be using the census, but I
do want to move way beyond the question itself.
|
[134]
Bethan Jenkins:
Grêt. Dyna beth oeddwn
i’n trio gofyn: o le oedd y dystiolaeth yn dod.
Jeremy.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Great. That’s what I was trying to ask: where
the evidence was going to come from. Jeremy.
|
[135]
Jeremy Miles:
Diolch. Mae’r uchelgais rydych
yn ei hamlinellu i’w chroesawi. Rydych yn gwybod eich bod chi
wedi cael ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad; roedd sawl person yn dweud
bod absenoldeb yn y strategaeth o dargedau clir a manwl, a’r
pryder, wrth gwrs, yw, heb strwythur o dargedau o nawr tan 2050, ni
fyddwn ni’n gwybod os ydym ni’n llwyddo i wneud y
cynnydd yn y siaradwyr sydd ei angen er mwyn cyrraedd y nod ar
ddiwedd y cyfnod. A ydych chi’n derbyn y feirniadaeth
honno—bod angen ymhelaethu ar y strategaeth i gynnwys
targedau penodol, ac os ydych chi, beth yw’r cynllun i wneud
hynny?
|
Jeremy Miles: Thank you. The ambition
that you outline is to be welcomed. You know that you’ve had
a response to the consultation from a number of people who say that
there is an absence in the strategy of clear and detailed targets,
and the concern, of course, is that without a structure of targets
from now and up until 2050, we won’t know whether we’re
succeeding in making the progress in terms of the number of
speakers to reach that target at the end of the period. Do you
accept that criticism—that there is a need to expand the
strategy to include specific targets, and if you do, what are the
plans to do so?
|
[136]
Alun Davies:
Nid oeddwn i’n ei weld e fel
beirniadaeth; roeddwn i’n ei weld e fel cyfraniad positif a
phwysig, i fod yn hollol onest gyda chi. Nid oes neb, wrth gwrs,
wedi gweld y strategaeth eto, a beth rŷm ni wedi’i wneud
yw cyhoeddi dogfen ymgynghori, ac mae trafodaeth wedi dod o hynny.
Rydw i’n croesawi, Jeremy, pob un cyfraniad i hynny. Nid ydw
i’n gweld y cyfraniad yna fel peth negyddol, ac nid ydw
i’n ei weld fel beirniadaeth. Rydw i’n ei weld e fel
cyfraniad pwysig. Mi fydd cynlluniau gweithredu, mi fydd yna
dargedau, mi fydd yna amcanion, ac mi fydd y strategaeth yn cynnwys
yn union yr un math o fframwaith. Nid yw’n ddigonol i
Weinidog ddod i bwyllgor yn y Cynulliad, neu i sefyll yn y Siambr,
a dweud, ‘Mae gennym ni un targed, ac mi fyddwn ni’n
cyrraedd y targed yn 2050.’ Nid yw hynny’n ddigonol.
Nid yw’n ddigonol i unrhyw Weinidog neu i unrhyw Lywodraeth
wneud hynny. Felly, mae’n rhaid bod yna dargedau. Mae’n
rhaid ein bod ni’n agored amboutu hynny, ac mae’n rhaid
inni, wrth gyhoeddi’r strategaeth, gyhoeddi hefyd y ffyrdd o
greu accountability yn beth rydym ni’n ei wneud, so
mae pobl yn gallu sicrhau ein bod ni’n atebol am beth rydym
ni’n ei ddweud a’r fath o amcanion rydym ni’n eu
gosod. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod yna ddim jest targedau,
ond amserlenni hefyd, er mwyn i bobl allu deall beth ydy ein nod ni
ac wedyn gall pobl sicrhau atebolrwydd y Llywodraeth a’r
Gweinidog.
|
Alun Davies: I didn’t see it as
a criticism; I saw it as a positive, important contribution to the
debate, to be honest with you. Nobody has seen the strategy, as of
yet, of course, and what we’ve done is to publish a
consultation document, and the debate has emerged from that.
Jeremy, I welcome every contribution to that process. I don’t
see these contributions as being negative or as being critical. I
see this as an important contribution, and, yes, action plans will
be in place. There will be targets in place. There will be
objectives, and the strategy will include exactly that kind of
framework. It isn’t sufficient for a Minister to appear
before a committee in the Assembly, or to stand up in the Chamber,
and say, ‘We have one target, and we will reach that target
by 2050.’ That simply is inadequate. It wouldn’t be
adequate for any Minister or any Government to take that approach.
So, there have to be targets in place. We have to be open about
that and, in publishing the strategy, we must also tell people how
we are going to have accountability in what we do, so that people
can ensure that we are accountable for our statements and for the
objectives that we put in place. We must ensure that we have not
only targets, but also timetables, so that people can understand
what our objectives and ambitions are and then people can secure
the accountability of the Government and the Minister.
|
[137]
Jeremy Miles:
Beth sydd gennych chi mewn golwg ar
hyn o bryd, os oes gennych chi rywbeth, yn nhermau pa strwythur
fydd i’r cyfnodau hynny gyda thargedau? Mae rhai wedi gofyn
am gynlluniau pum mlynedd, rhai eraill wedi awgrymu degawdau ac
ati. A oes gennych chi ryw ddamcaniaeth ar hyn o bryd o beth
yw’r cyfnodau neu’r cerrig milltir gorau rhwng nawr a
diwedd y cyfnod?
|
Jeremy
Miles: What do you have in mind at the moment, if there is
something, in terms of the structure of those periods and the
targets? Some have asked for five-year plans, others have suggested
decades. Do you have some theory at the moment regarding the best
milestones or periods between now and the end of the period?
|
[138]
Alun Davies:
Mae’r weledigaeth yn un
hirdymor, wrth gwrs, ac, felly, mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau bod
gennym ni strwythur sy’n arwain trwy’r hirdymor i
sicrhau bod gennym ni dargedau, ac rwy’n credu bod targedau
pum mlynedd yn ddigon rhesymol a thargedau 10 mlynedd yn ddigon
rhesymol. Hefyd, pa fath o dargedau ydyn nhw, achos nid ydym ni
jest ishe gweld targed ar gyfer nifer y siaradwyr ble mae’r
Gymraeg yn ein cymdeithas ni, ond hefyd, beth ydym ni’n ei
wneud i sicrhau ein bod ni’n cyrraedd y targed erbyn 2050.
Mae hynny’n gallu meddwl, er enghraifft, targed ar faint o
athrawon sy’n gallu dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu darged
ar faint o bobl sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaethau lleol
sy’n gallu darparu gwasanaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Felly, rydym ni’n mynd i fesur nid jest canlyniadau’r
polisi ond beth rydym ni’n rhoi i mewn i’r system i
sicrhau ein bod ni’n cyrraedd amcanion y polisi. Bethan, a
ydych chi eisiau ychwanegu rhywbeth?
|
Alun
Davies: This is a long-term vision, of course, and so we have
to ensure that we have a structure in place that leads us through
the long term to ensure that we have appropriate targets, and I
think five-year targets are quite reasonable. Ten-year targets are
also reasonable. We also have to consider what kind of targets
these are, because we don’t just want to see targets in terms
of the number of Welsh speakers, but also what we’re doing to
ensure that we are reaching the ultimate target by 2050. That could
mean a target related to the number of teachers able to teach
through the medium of Welsh or a target in terms of how many people
work in local services who are able to provide Welsh language
services. So, we’re not going to just measure the outcomes of
the policy, but also the inputs, in order to ensure that we reach
the policy objectives. Bethan, did you have anything to add?
|
[139]
Ms Webb: Dyna beth ydy’r bwriad. Fel mae’r
Gweinidog wedi dweud, mae—sori.
|
Ms Webb:
That’s the intention. As the Minister’s
said—sorry.
|
[140]
Bethan Jenkins:
Na, nid oes angen ichi gyffwrdd ag
e.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: No, you don’t have to touch it.
|
[141]
Ms Webb: Mae’r sensws yn digwydd bob degawd. Mae
arolwg defnydd yn digwydd bob degawd ym mlynyddoedd pedwar a phump
sydd yn manylu mwy ar ddefnydd iaith. Bydd y comisiynydd, yn ei
gwaith o ddydd i ddydd, yn goruchwylio defnydd pan fydd y safonau
yn cael eu gweithredu. Mae gennym ni ddata PLASC o ran canlyniadau
yng nghyfnod allweddol 4 ac yn saith oed. Felly, mae gennym ni lu o
ddata yn y system yn barod a bydd y data yna yn adlewyrchu’r
daith iaith o rŵan tan 2050. Ond, yn sicr, fel mae’r
Gweinidog wedi dweud, bydd y polisïau gweithredu sy’n
aros yn gyfforddus o dan y brif nod strategol yn mynd â ni ar
daith bob pum mlynedd.
|
Ms Webb:
The census happens every decade. A survey regarding use happens
every decade, in years four and five, which goes into more detail
as to the use of language. The commissioner, in her day-to-day
work, will supervise the use when the standards are implemented. We
have PLASC data in terms of results at key stage 4 and at the age
of seven. Therefore, we have a significant amount of data in the
system already, and those would reflect the language journey from
now to 2050. But, certainly, as the Minister has said, the
implementation policies that remain comfortably under the main
strategic aim will take us on a journey every five years.
|
[142]
Jeremy Miles:
Ai’r bwriad yw cyhoeddi’r
targedau neu fframwaith o dargedau yn yr un cyfnod ag yr ydych
chi’n cyhoeddi’r strategaeth ei hunan? Ai dyna’r
bwriad ar hyn o bryd?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Would it be the intention to publish a framework of
targets simultaneously with the strategy itself? Is that the
intention?
|
[143]
Alun Davies:
Ie.
|
Alun
Davies: Yes.
|
[144]
Bethan Jenkins:
Iawn? Grêt, diolch yn fawr,
Jeremy. Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at Suzy a’i
chwestiynau.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Okay? Great, thank you very much, Jeremy. We
move on to Suzy.
|
[145]
Suzy Davies:
Diolch, Bethan.
|
Suzy
Davies: Thank you, Bethan.
|
[146] I think we all
accept that there needs to be a primary focus on education. If that
doesn’t work, the rest is lost. But there is a very strong,
virtually—well, let’s call it a strong focus on
education, which is dealing with the supply end of things.
You’re already having to firefight a little bit with the
figures that have come out today on the number of secondary
teachers qualified through the medium of Welsh. With so much focus
on education, how are you planning to manage, alongside the demand
side, the use of Welsh outside the school gate or college gate,
because you can’t leave that until you’ve sorted the
education?
|
[147] Alun
Davies: In answering your question, I think it’d be
useful, actually, if we had a session—that’s a matter
for the committee, of course—when the strategy is actually
published to go into some of these issues. We’re talking
about, at the moment, some of the areas that were published in the
consultation document. And you’re absolutely right,
Suzy—you’re absolutely right—that there was a
great deal of focus on education. Personally, I place a great deal
of emphasis on that myself, as a Minister, because I look at the
community I represent in Blaenau Gwent—it’s a very
small number of people actually speaking and using the Welsh
language in that community—and how are we going to enable
people to feel that Welsh is a part of their lives without creating
new Welsh speakers, if you like? That should be a core part of what
our education system delivers, both through Welsh-medium education
and also through English-medium education. I don’t think we
should simply see the role of education as being the role of
Welsh-medium education; we need to look at the education system in
its totality.
|
[148] But, the
question that you ask is the absolutely critical one. If you just
take the Welsh-medium sector for a moment, it is possible to create
that Welsh-speaking community within a school environment, and if
it was in Blaenau Gwent, for example, that Welsh-speaking community
would exist within that school environment and wouldn’t
exist, potentially, on the street outside.
|
[149] So, how do you
enable people to use and feel comfortable using the Welsh language
in communities where Welsh is not the language of that community? I
think that’s one of our key ambitions and one of our key
objectives. We’ve got a number of ideas how we do that, both
in terms of supported institutions and organisations that already
do that—mentrau iaith is a good example, the Urdd
would be another example, and young farmers’ clubs, I think,
do fantastic work in enabling people to feel part of a
Welsh-speaking community, whether they speak the language or not. I
think more organisations, and public organisations as well, could
do a lot to learn from those sorts of voluntary organisations. So,
there is that sort of structure and that social environment already
existing outside of schools, but you’re absolutely
right—we need to look hard at that.
|
[150] But we also need
to look at how that society is changing and how our society is
changing. I’m going to be speaking in Bangor on Friday at a
conference looking at technology. If, for example, we are using
speech-to-text technology, we need to ensure that the Welsh
language is a part of that and that the Welsh language is a part of
all the different technologies that perhaps our children understand
and we don’t—certainly in my case. So, the debate and
the discussion about the place of Welsh outside of that school
environment isn’t simply a discussion that happens that is
only to do with geography, but it’s to do with the whole of
our community and how our community communicates with itself in the
future. I think it’s a very, very exciting challenge,
actually. I think sometimes we see it as a very negative thing, as
a terrible and difficult challenge to face. I think it’s
enormously exciting and I think there are fantastic opportunities
for us to ensure that the Welsh language is a part of
people’s lives where they choose it to be so, and that we are
able to extend the reach of Welsh, and using technology to do that,
as well.
|
[151] Suzy
Davies: Thank you for that, because I agree—I think this
is probably going to be the most difficult part of it, but
I’m glad you’re excited about it [Laughter.]
|
[152] For those who
are coming into this now, just as the wave crests, if you like,
I’ve got some confidence that the ideas you’ve
expressed today will be very helpful, but there are still the
people who exist now who are already over 25. I don’t expect
you to give us a fully developed policy here, but how are we
capturing those who perhaps have had no interest in Welsh, when
they see these younger people coming behind them who are culturally
different?
|
[153] Alun
Davies: ‘Culturally different’ is an interesting
term, isn’t it? Is it culturally different? I don’t
know.
|
[154] Suzy
Davies: Well, they will be, if you’re right.
|
[155] Alun
Davies: Do you know, the key task, if you like, that we have to
achieve, is to make the Welsh language easy and comfortable for
people? It’s a bridge and not a barrier.
|
[156] Suzy
Davies: No, no. I heard that.
|
[157] Alun
Davies: And that means that we need to ensure that Welsh is
around us and that people feel comfortable using the Welsh language
around us in different ways. Members will have heard me before
talking about the great success of the Football Association of
Wales last summer in France—by normalising the use of Welsh,
putting the language there, up on the screens, wherever it is, so
that people feel comfortable with the use of Welsh, people hear
Welsh being used. I was speaking to somebody this week who was
overly excited, possibly, by I think a refuse lorry in Cardiff with
a warning in Welsh and English when it was reversing
[Laughter.]
|
[158] Suzy
Davies: Yes, they do in Swansea as well.
|
[159] Alun
Davies: This is the example I’m using. He said, ‘I
couldn’t believe that, because all of a sudden, the Welsh
language is there, and it’s fantastic to see’. So, we
need to make Welsh—
|
[160] Bethan
Jenkins: Just as you get knocked over [Laughter.]
|
[161] Alun
Davies: There’s a happy end to the story
[Laughter.] So, the serious point here—I’ll
finish the sentence—is that we need to ensure that Welsh is
around us, that people don’t feel that they are in any way
excluded from that, that we encourage and we are inclusive in the
use of that, and that we ensure that the cultural approach that we
take, if you like, doesn’t create differentiation, but
creates a sense of cohesion.
|
11:00
|
[162] And we’re
having lots of debates at the moment about cohesion in society, and
some of those debates are positive, some are less positive. And my
feeling is that the language is something that can be a unifying
force, something that can be used in order to give a sense of place
and a sense of purpose, and it is my strong belief, as somebody who
grew up as a non-Welsh speaker, as somebody who has brought up his
children to speak Welsh now, and as somebody who moves from English
to Welsh in social life on a pretty regular basis, I want people to
feel comfortable when they hear Welsh spoken around them, I want
people to feel comfortable using Welsh when they choose to do so,
and I want people to feel the earlier question about what is a
Welsh speaker and what is an English speaker to be completely and
utterly irrelevant—that if somebody speaks terrible, broken
Welsh, that they’re proud of it and it’s the only Welsh
they know, then they should be encouraged to make those
mistakes.
|
[163]
Suzy Davies: Lovely, thank you.
|
[164]
Bethan Jenkins:
A oes gen ti gwestiynau ynglŷn
ag addysg, ynglŷn â hyfforddiant athrawon hefyd,
Suzy?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Do you have questions on education and the training of
teachers, Suzy?
|
[165]
Suzy Davies: I don’t think they were my questions, were
they?
|
[166]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ocê. Mae cwestiynau hefyd
gennym ni ynglŷn â chynllunio’r gweithlu addysg, a
hefyd ynglŷn â sut rydych chi’n credu bod angen
ehangu ar hynny yng nghyd-destun y targed. Gwnaethon ni glywed
tystiolaeth gan rai o’r coleg Cymraeg yn dweud bod yna ganran
yn barod sy’n medru’r Gymraeg ond sy’n dysgu trwy
gyfrwng y Saesneg, a gallen nhw newid yn syth bin er mwyn gallu
dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Pa fath o newidiadau fydd eu hangen
yn benodol yn y sector addysg i sicrhau bod athrawon yn gallu dysgu
trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Okay. We also have questions on workforce
planning—the education workforce—and how you think
there is a need to expand on that in the context of the target. We
heard evidence from some in the coleg Cymraeg who said that
there was a percentage already who were Welsh speaking teaching
through the medium of English, and they could change immediately to
be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, what sort of
changes are required specifically in the education sector to ensure
that teachers can teach through the medium of Welsh?
|
[167]
Alun Davies:
Un o’r heriau sydd gennym ni
pan fydd hi’n dod i’r strategaeth yw sicrhau bod gennym
ni’r gweithlu i ddelifro ar ein gweledigaeth ni, ac
rwy’n credu bod hynny’n bwysig. Ac rwy’n gweld
bod y coleg Cymraeg wedi bod yn llwyddiant. Mae wedi bod yn hynod o
lwyddiannus ac yn fodel arbennig o gryf. Mi fydd Aelodau’n
ymwybodol bod Kirsty Williams wedi sefydlu gweithgor a fydd yn
edrych ar sut rydym ni’n ehangu rôl y coleg Cymraeg i
weithredu yn y sector addysg bellach hefyd, ac rwy’n edrych
ymlaen at glywed y gweithgor yn adrodd yn ôl i ni—ac
rwy’n credu bydd hynny yn yr haf.
|
Alun
Davies: One of the challenges we face when it comes to the
strategy is ensuring that we have the workforce in place to deliver
our vision, and I do think that that’s important. And I do
think that the coleg Cymraeg has been very successful and
has been an exceptionally strong model. Members will be aware that
Kirsty Williams has established a working group looking at how we
can enhance the role of the coleg Cymraeg to be working in
the further education sector, too, and I look forward to the
outcome of that working group—and I think they’ll
report in the summer.
|
[168]
Rwy’n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni
ystyried o ddifrif sut rydym ni’n sicrhau bod gennym ni nid
jest y nifer absoliwt o athrawon sy’n gallu dysgu yn Gymraeg,
neu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, neu ddysgu’r Gymraeg, ond hefyd
bod gennym ni strwythur yn ei le sy’n gynaliadwy ar gyfer y
dyfodol hefyd ac sy’n gallu ehangu ar gyfer y dyfodol hefyd,
ac sy’n gallu cynnig cyfleoedd i athrawon sy’n siarad
Cymraeg ond nad ydynt yn teimlo’n ddigon hyderus i’w
ddefnyddio a dysgu a gweithio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly,
rwy’n edrych ar sawl elfen o gynllunio’r gweithlu ar
hyn o bryd, ac mi fydd y strategaeth derfynol yn cynnwys amcanion
ar gyfer athrawon sy’n dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, athrawon
sy’n dysgu Cymraeg, ac mi fydd gennym ni, yn y strategaeth,
ddarlun o sut rydym ni’n gweld y system yn datblygu ar gyfer
y dyfodol.
|
I do think we
have to consider in earnest how we ensure that we have not only the
absolute number of teachers able to teach through the medium of
Welsh, or to teach Welsh, but also that we have the structures in
place that are sustainable for the future and which can expand for
the future, and which can provide opportunities to teachers who are
Welsh speaking but don’t feel confident enough to teach and
work through the medium of Welsh. So, I am looking at a number of
different elements in terms of workforce planning at the moment,
and the final strategy will include objectives for teachers who
teach through the medium of Welsh, teachers who teach Welsh, and we
will also, within that strategy, have a portrayal of how we see the
system developing for the future.
|
[169]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rydym ni’n edrych ymlaen at
weld hynny. Rydym ni wedi clywed gan un tyst a ddywedodd bod angen,
siŵr o fod, 70 y cant o athrawon ychwanegol sy’n
medru’r Gymraeg er mwyn cyflawni’r targed a chyrraedd 1
filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050. A oes data gennych chi, er mwyn i
chi, fel rydych chi wedi dweud, fel rhan o’ch strategaeth
chi, i dracio lle fydd angen gwneud y newidiadau i hyfforddiant
athrawon ac i greu mwy o athrawon fel rhan o’ch
cynlluniau?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We look forward to seeing that. We’ve heard from
one witness who says that, probably, there would need to be a
further 70 per cent of teachers who can speak Welsh in order to
achieve the target of achieving 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050.
Do you have data so that you, as you said, will be able to track
the changes to teacher training and to create more teachers as part
of your plans?
|
[170]
Alun Davies:
Mae’r pwyllgor yn ymwybodol bod
yr Education Workforce Council wedi bod yn edrych ar sgiliau
iaith yn y gweithlu. Nid wyf i’n adnabod y ffigwr rydych chi
wedi ei ddefnyddio y bore yma, ond nid wyf i’n dweud nad
yw’r ffigwr yn gywir—nid wyf i’n ei adnabod fy
hun. Ond, rwy’n hapus iawn i ystyried yr her sydd gennym ni i
sicrhau bod gennym ni’r adnoddau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Ac, os
nad oes digon o athrawon sy’n gallu dysgu trwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg gennym ni, wel nid ydym ni’n gallu beirniadu
cynghorau am beidio ag agor ysgolion Cymraeg. Mae’n rhaid bod
y ddau yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd, ac mae’n rhaid bod
gennym ni gynllun i sicrhau bod gennym ni’r adnoddau er mwyn
cyrraedd y weledigaeth rydym ni wedi ei gosod ar gyfer ein hunain.
A dyna’n union y pwynt, i ddod yn ôl at eich cwestiwn
cyntaf chi, Gadeirydd, sef: pam ydych chi’n gosod y targed
heriol yma. Er mwyn newid—creu newid a chreu’r angen i
newid. Achos, y ffordd rwyddaf i gyhoeddi strategaeth yn ystod y
misoedd nesaf fyddai strategaeth nad yw yn ein herio ni fel
Llywodraeth.
|
Alun
Davies: The committee is aware that the Education Workforce
Council has been looking at language skills within the workforce. I
don’t recognise the figure that you’ve used this
morning, but I’m not saying that it’s incorrect—I
just don’t recognise it myself. But I am more than happy to
consider the challenge we face in terms of ensuring that we have
the necessary resources for the future and, if we don’t have
enough teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh,
well we can’t criticise councils for not opening Welsh-medium
schools. Both aspects need to go hand in hand, and we must have a
plan in place in order to ensure that we have the resources that
enable us to achieve the vision that we have set ourselves. And
that brings me back to your first question, Chair as to why you
have set this ambitious and challenging target. It’s in order
to generate change and to generate the need for change. Because the
easiest way of publishing a strategy over the next few months would
be a strategy that didn’t challenge us as a Government.
|
[171] Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch. Lee.
|
[172] Lee
Waters: The difficulty, Minister, is that we’re not
starting from a stable position; we’re starting from a
declining position. Newyddion reported last night that the
number of students completing secondary training through Welsh has
halved in the last three years. So, what implications does that
have for our plan?
|
[173] Alun
Davies: It doesn’t have happy implications, and
we’re aware of that, clearly. We understand why that is
happening, and we’re looking at how we can ensure that, in
the future, we are able to produce sufficient teachers to deliver
on our ambitions. But, you’re absolutely right. I
won’t, in any way, challenge either the numbers, the figures
or the analysis. I think you’re absolutely right. We do have
a number—. I think it’s a third of teachers in Wales
that are able to speak Welsh at the moment, from our understanding.
Is that sufficient? Potentially. Would we like more? Potentially.
Are we helping people who have some Welsh to improve their Welsh?
Yes, we are. The sabbatical process and project is working well on
enabling people to move from speaking a limited level of Welsh to
being able to understand Welsh, and to use Welsh as part of their
working lives. In the last year for which we have numbers, 245
teachers were able to complete that process. So, yes, there is a
significant challenge there; and there are already means and
mechanisms in place to recognise and to overcome those
challenges.
|
[174] Bethan
Jenkins: Lee, did you have any more questions?
|
[175] Lee
Waters: Shall we address this now or later, as we were planning
to—the issue of training?
|
[176] Bethan
Jenkins: Just carry on while you’re on the theme.
|
[177] Lee
Waters: The difficulty, Minister, is that we took evidence from
the Education Workforce Council. They were saying that the data
they have show that the sabbatical scheme, in which we’re
investing heavily and have a lot of faith in terms of one of the
few options we have of practical projects to address the situation,
is having negligible change since it was introduced in 2007. So, on
their own evidence, based on data from the register of
practitioners, even though there is anecdotal evidence to suggest
there’s demand for these courses and the people who go on
them find them of benefit, in terms of the amount of teachers who
can actually teach through Welsh in classrooms as a result of being
on these courses, it’s having a negligible impact.
|
[178] Alun
Davies: I’ve not seen that, and that’s not my
view.
|
[179] Lee
Waters: Well, it’s the Education Workforce
Council’s view.
|
[180] Alun
Davies: It’s not my view. I think the number I’ve
just given to you—245 people having been through that system
in a year—demonstrates that it is having an effect. We are
looking to—
|
[181] Lee
Waters: I’m not sure we can casually set aside the view
of the people who monitor this.
|
[182] Alun
Davies: I don’t accept their analysis, I think, is the
best way of putting it.
|
[183] Lee
Waters: But there are no data to suggest otherwise, though.
|
[184] Alun
Davies: Well, I’ve just given you a number now. But the
point that I’m making to you is this, Lee—
|
[185] Lee
Waters: With respect, though, Minister, the number you’ve
given me is not the number of teachers who, actually, as a result
of going through these courses, then go back and teach differently.
That’s what matters.
|
[186] Alun
Davies: It is what matters; you’re absolutely right. We
understand that there are about a third of teachers in Wales who
speak Welsh and would be able, potentially, to teach through the
medium of Welsh. We are increasing that number, mainly through the
sabbatical system on an annual basis. It may well be that not all
of those teachers then return to teach through the medium of Welsh
in a way that perhaps we would hope, expect and anticipate. I do
not believe that it is reasonable, therefore, to describe that as
having a negligible effect. I don’t accept that analysis and
I don’t accept that conclusion.
|
[187] Lee
Waters: Well, it’s difficult when we’re abandoning
data and relying on faith and judgment, isn’t it?
|
[188] Alun
Davies: We’re not abandoning data, Lee. That is not the
case. I have given you the numbers. What we’re seeing is an
independent evaluation of the scheme, published two years ago,
reported that it was having an effect, both in terms of language
skills and the use of Welsh after returning to their school or
college. So, the only evaluation we have of this—the only
evaluation we have of this scheme—says it works, says it
succeeds and says it delivers. Now, if other commentators
don’t accept that, it’s their absolute right to have
their point of view, but I would like to see the evidence upon
which they’ve based that point of view.
|
[189] Neil
Hamilton: Am I right in thinking there are 15,000 qualified
teachers in Wales? [Inaudible.] I know you’re saying
it’s 27 per cent—[Inaudible.]
|
[190] Alun Davies:
Thirty-three per cent.
|
[191] Neil
Hamilton: Thirty three per cent class themselves as Welsh
speakers, so if by—.
|
[192] Bethan
Jenkins: Thirty-five thousand qualified teachers.
|
[193] Neil
Hamilton: Thirty-five thousand. Right. I was just trying to put
the 245 figure in perspective. I mean, I agree with you, I
don’t think that is a negligible figure given that this is a
relatively new scheme and it is in the process of development.
|
[194] Alun
Davies: I would never, as a Minister, sit back and say,
‘Everything works perfectly well, I’m content with the
world the way it is today.’ I think we constantly need to be
testing ourselves, challenging ourselves, pushing ourselves. I feel
that the evidence that I have seen is that the scheme works, it is
effective, it delivers the language skills that we want to see
delivered. There’s no evidence to suggest it doesn’t,
and I’ve certainly never seen any evidence to suggest it
doesn’t deliver those language schemes. The people
who’ve participated in it have said themselves that their
language skills have increased in the way that we would expect and
anticipate and we’ve got no reason to question that, and the
use of Welsh has increased as a consequence of being on those
schemes. We know that from the independent evaluation. Now, if the
Education Workforce Council is saying it has a negligible
effect—I haven’t seen that myself—then
that’s a matter for them.
|
[195] Bethan
Jenkins: To clarify, they said they’re not
changing—. When they go back to reregister after
they’ve done those courses, they’re not changing how
they define themselves after having done those courses. But I
think, just to clarify also, it depends on the level of the course.
So, in some of them, they wouldn’t be expected to be able to
teach through the medium of Welsh, so I think we need to take that
into consideration when we’re making a judgement on the
sabbatical courses as well.
|
[196] Lee
Waters: There’s further evidence as well on the
difficulty of the sabbatical courses that we’ve received.
Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru told us that there’s a
difficulty in releasing teachers and then Estyn further told us
that, in backfilling those teachers who have been released, there
just aren’t the number of supply teachers who are able to
speak Welsh to cover them. So, the interlinkages within the system
are really quite difficult.
|
[197] Alun
Davies: No, they’re not difficult; those are the
management challenges you find when you enhance or deliver any
training activity. Those are the challenges of creating a
self-improving system, which is what we want to do in education.
Whenever you release a teacher from a classroom, you’ve got
to backfill those vacancies. That happens; that is entirely and
absolutely the case.
|
[198] Lee
Waters: Indeed, but Estyn’s saying that there
aren’t the number of Welsh-speaking qualified teachers
available to backfill.
|
[199] Alun
Davies: Lee, the key issue here is not simply to list the
problems, but to find solutions, and that’s what I seek to do
as a Minister.
|
[200] Lee
Waters: But we have a scrutiny function Minister, with
respect—
|
[201] Alun
Davies: Of course you do.
|
[202] Lee
Waters: —and we’re putting to you the challenges
that we’ve heard in evidence that need to be properly
addressed for this strategy to succeed. I’m not trying to
trip you up.
|
[203] Alun
Davies: I understand the scrutiny system; I think it’s
hugely important. But let me say this: but I have the right to
answer as well. The only evaluation of the scheme was a positive
evaluation, and the only evaluation of the scheme has told us that
the scheme has been able to both improve language skills and the
use of Welsh. So, we know that and we know that it’s working.
Does having a comprehensive and popular and extensive sabbatical
programme, in the way that we’ve described, lead to
management issues? Yes, of course it does, and those management
issues are there to be resolved. What I would like to be able to
understand is how we are able to expand this, and still maintain
the ability of schools to deliver the teaching that they are
required to do. On what I would like to see, some of the funding
that we’ve just announced in the budget will go to expanding
this programme, and will go to enabling us, I hope, to have more
people on the sabbatical programme in the future. Of course, that
does lead to other challenges—there is no argument from me or
from anyone else that, actually, this is something that exists
without challenges and will be able to be delivered without
resolving some of the issues that you’ve described.
|
11:15
|
[204] But the point
I’m making to you, rightly—and this is the important
point here—is that we create these opportunities, we create
the structure in order to deliver on our ambitions, and we have
people in place who are able to deliver the management functions to
enable that structure to work. And that is what we have to do as a
system.
|
[205] Lee
Waters: Can I ask a final question on this section?
|
[206] Bethan
Jenkins: Yes.
|
[207] Lee
Waters: I would suggest it’s more than a management
problem if the bodies aren’t there to be able to manage. But
in terms of the—. Can you answer specifically on the Cam wrth
Gam scheme—this is the early years practitioners’
project—and whether or not you plan to expand or invest in
that further?
|
[208] Alun
Davies: Yes.
|
[209] Lee
Waters: That’s very clear; thank you.
|
[210]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. Neil Hamilton ar
ddilyniant.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much, and now we have Neil Hamilton on
progression.
|
[211] Neil
Hamilton: Like you, I spent several of my formative years as a
resident of Pantycelyn hall; it helped to make us the rounded
figures that we’ve subsequently become.
|
[212] Alun
Davies: There we are, we’ve found something in common
after all these years. [Laughter.]
|
[213] Neil
Hamilton: Although in my day, it was a bilingual hall, not a
Welsh language hall.
|
[214] Bethan
Jenkins: Were you there at the same time as Prince Charles?
|
[215] Neil
Hamilton: Yes, we were boys together.
|
[216] Alun
Davies: I wasn’t there then. [Laughter.]
|
[217] Neil
Hamilton: So I’m interested in your policy of creating
one continuum of learning the Welsh language, going on by steps
through life. We’ve had evidence in relation to the Welsh in
education strategic plans, which have been criticised by the Welsh
Language Commissioner, as well as Estyn. The language commissioner
said that the experience of the first three years of WESPs was we
didn’t see any progress, there’s been no growth, and
she needs more robust guidance from Government to gather data and
put reasonable targets in place. We’ve also had evidence as
regards local authorities and the support that they give for this,
that that’s patchy—I think that was Estyn’s
evidence. And I was wondering, therefore, if you can explain to us
what plans you’ve got to support local authorities in the
planning and development of Welsh-medium provision through the WESP
process.
|
[218] Alun
Davies: Yes, we’ve received the vast majority of WESPs,
now, from local authorities. There are still a few outstanding;
they were due in last month. It is my intention to make a formal
statement on this—either an oral or written
statement—at an appropriate time, when we’ve had an
opportunity to review the plans that we’ve had and to make a
considered judgment on that. What can I say this morning that will
help the process? Some plans are better than others, as we would
expect and anticipate. Some plans will help us achieve our
ambitions, other plans won’t. It is not my intention at any
point to become embroiled in a negative conversation with local
authorities. Local authorities have different pressures on their
budgets and their resources. It is my clear ambition that WESPs are
an important tool to enable us to achieve our ambitions in terms of
delivering on the target of 1 million Welsh speakers and to ensure
that people across Wales have the same opportunity to access
Welsh-medium education.
|
[219] How do we do
that? I believe that we need to have a conversation with different
local authorities about how we can work together to do that. I
think collaboration and co-operation is better than an approach
that is more negative. I want to work with local government, not
against local government. I want local government to work together,
between local authorities. And I want us to find a process now,
having seen the WESPs as they are, of moving forward in an agreed
way.
|
[220] I know this is a
very inadequate answer, because I’m not directly answering
your question, but what I’m trying to do is to describe my
approach and the approach I will take. And I think, when I’m
in a position, when I’ve had an opportunity to consider the
WESPs that we’ve received, to consider the context in which
they’ve been written, to consider whether they achieve the
ambitions and the vision, and then be in a position to make an
announcement on how I intend to take that forward, I will make that
announcement first and foremost to the National Assembly.
|
[221] Neil
Hamilton: All right. I suppose the challenge is greater in some
parts of the country than others. You referred to Blaenau Gwent
earlier on, obviously, being your own constituency, and an area
that has very few native Welsh speakers. Insofar as you can tell
us, from what you’ve seen of WESPs already, is the adequacy
or inadequacy, in your eyes, of particular plans in any way related
to the prevalence or otherwise of Welsh speakers within that
community?
|
[222] Alun
Davies: I think it would be difficult to characterise it in
such a way. I would—I’m trying not to mislead, because
we are in the middle of this conversation and this consideration at
the moment, and we haven’t reached any conclusions. Some
authorities have more ambition than other authorities. Some
authorities are clearly wanting to develop the delivery of
Welsh-medium education in a way that others aren’t, and it
always has been that situation. I wouldn’t like to
characterise any of these plans, or any of these deficiencies or
whatever, in a way that tries to place that authority
geographically. Some are surprising. Some authorities that you
wouldn’t expect or anticipate to have that vision have been
really very, very pleasing to see. Others that you would anticipate
to be more ambitious probably aren’t as ambitious. So, I
think it would be difficult to characterise the overall quality or
standard of ambition in those terms, but the key thing for me, as a
Minister here in Cardiff, is to work with local government across
Wales to look at how we can deliver Welsh language education in a
way that is coherent, which meets the ambitions of the Government
as a whole, but also the community that is represented in that
place. Clearly, those ambitions will be different in different
places. Our expectations will be different in different places. I
think what I’m really anxious to do is to ensure that there
is agreement and consensus. What I’m not seeking to do is
either to impose or enforce.
|
[223] Neil
Hamilton: Well, I strongly support that approach. My question
was prompted by what you said earlier on about using the language
as a bridge rather than a barrier. In the context of current
controversies about cohesion in numerous contexts, as your policy
succeeds—as we hope it will do—the danger of it
becoming a barrier rather than a bridge in respect of areas like
Blaenau Gwent, for example, is possibly going to become a more
difficult problem as the Welsh language becomes more natural as a
means of discourse and living in different parts of Wales.
We’ve got to bring with us the English monoglot areas, which
will perhaps require more of the carrot-and-stick approach.
|
[224] Alun
Davies: I’m not sure that’s true, you know. I
visited my old infant school, Glanhowy, in Tredegar with Kirsty
Williams before Christmas. We were walking through the school,
chatting to teachers, and I heard Welsh being taught there in a way
that wasn’t taught when I was a four-year-old in Glanhowy. I
heard Welsh being spoken there, and children learning basic words
in Welsh in a way that you simply wouldn’t have heard when I
was a child. So, there will be—. As I said earlier, I reject
the sort of categorisation of people, because those children will
have a grasp of basic Welsh. They will learn Welsh in a way that I
never did. There will always be, I think, in Wales—we use
that word ‘continuum’—people who are absolutely
fluent—
|
[225] Bethan
Jenkins: We’ll come on to that.
|
[226] Alun
Davies: Yes. I was afraid we might. [Laughter.]
|
[227] Bethan
Jenkins: If you let us, that is.
|
[228] Alun
Davies: This is one strategy that has been uncovered.
[Laughter.] There are people who are feeling completely
comfortable to speak Welsh as a first language, who prefer to speak
in Welsh; then people who will use Welsh in different
circumstances—socially rather than professionally, or
whatever; and then people who have very little Welsh. We’ve
always had that continuum in Wales. What we have tried to do is to
divide it in half, and we’ve always been wrong to do that.
So, when we talk about that bridge, those children that I spoke to
in Tredegar are learning Welsh now in a way that their parents
would never have done, and that is the bridge, because they will
see things and hear things, and they will understand things that
their parents or grandparents would never have done. So,
let’s look at how we can create that cohesion, and how the
language can be something that really does belong to all of us in a
very profound way and use that to create cohesion, and not to
create division. You know, I visited another school in Bethesda, in
Gwynedd, where you have children who come from all sorts of
backgrounds, not all from Gwynedd but coming from across the border
in England, and also from other parts of the world, and who were
learning to speak Welsh. The language brings them together as a
community, as a school, and as young children. It’s a very
positive thing in that way, so that’s why I always want to
see the language as something where we all feel comfortable. We
will feel comfortable in different ways, but let’s all feel
comfortable about its place in our society.
|
[229]
11:25
|
[230] Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch. Mae yna gwpwl o
gwestiynau ar y strategaethau addysg, felly os ydym ni’n
gallu cael atebion byrrach, byddai hynny’n grêt. Jeremy
Miles.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. There are a couple of questions on
education strategies, so if we could have shorter answers, that
would be great. Jeremy Miles.
|
[231] Jeremy Miles: Roeddwn i jest moyn adeiladu ar y cwestiwn. Fe
wnaethoch chi sôn am y continwwm a rhannu pobl i siarad
Cymraeg iaith gyntaf ac ail iaith. Mae’r cymhwyster unedig,
wrth gwrs, yn mynd i ddelio gyda hynny o ran cymwysterau.
Mae’r cysyniad yma o gontinwwm yn rhywbeth gallai pawb
gefnogi ar y lefel o gysyniad; mae’n galonogol ac mae’n
bositif. Ond, yn y cynllunio ac ym manylder y broses o ddylunio
continwwm y mae’r llwyddo neu’r methu. Ble ydym ni ar
hyn o bryd gyda’r cynllunio a’r continwwm addysgiadol
yna?
|
Jeremy
Miles: I just wanted to build on the issue of the continuum and
separating people into categories of Welsh speakers and second
language speakers. This concept of a continuum is something that
everyone could support on a conceptual level; it’s
encouraging and it’s positive. But in terms of the detailed
planning of designing a continuum, that’s where success and
failure will lie. So, where are we now in planning that education
continuum?
|
[232] Alun
Davies: Pan rydym ni’n sôn amboutu’r
qualifications?
|
Alun
Davies: When we talk about qualifications?
|
[233] Jeremy
Miles: Symud tuag at yr un
cymhwyster yna, ie.
|
Jeremy
Miles: Moving towards that one qualification, yes.
|
[234] Alun
Davies: Yr un cymhwyster, o ran
GCSE, ie? Mae’r cwricwlwm newydd yn cael ei gyflwyno
yn nes ymlaen y flwyddyn yma. Bydd plant yn dechrau astudio hynny
yn nes ymlaen y flwyddyn yma. Bydd yna dal enw ‘ail
iaith’ fel rhan o hynny, ond beth leiciwn i wahodd pobl
i’w wneud yw edrych y tu hwnt i’r teitl ac edrych ar
beth sy’n cael ei ddysgu. Mi fydd y broses o ddysgu yn newid
y flwyddyn yma, a bydd y broses a’r cwricwlwm yn newid y
flwyddyn yma. Er bod y teitl yn dal i fod yno fel ‘ail
iaith’, bydd natur y dysgu wedi newid—ac mi fydd
hynny’n newid—a wedyn bydd hynny’n bwydo i mewn
i’r holl drafodaeth ar Donaldson, a fydd yn newid yn ei
gyfanrwydd yn 2021.
|
Alun
Davies: One qualification in terms of GCSE, yes? The new
curriculum is being introduced later this year, and children will
start to study that later this year. There will still be the term
‘second language’ as part of that, but what I would
like to invite people to do is to look beyond the title and to look
at what is being taught. The process of teaching will change this
year and the process and the curriculum will change this year. So,
even though the title is still there as ‘second
language’, the nature of the teaching will change—and
that will change—and then that will feed into the whole
Donaldson discussion and the complete change in 2021.
|
[235] Jeremy
Miles: Ac ar y cynllunio adnoddau
ac ati sydd ynghlwm wrth hynny, mae hynny ar y ffordd yn barod,
ydyw e?
|
Jeremy
Miles: And in terms of planning resources and so on,
that’s in the pipeline already, is it?
|
[236] Alun
Davies: Ydy, rwy’n hyderus
iawn bod y cynllunio—rydym ni wedi trafod rhywfaint
cynllunio’r gweithlu—ac rwy’n hyderus bod y
broses o gydweithio gyda’r gweithlu yn digwydd. Dyna pam
rydym ni’n ei gyflwyno yn y ffordd rydym yn ei wneud. Mae
rhai wedi dadlau bod yn rhaid i ni gael gwared ar yr holl fusnes
‘ail iaith’ yma, a newid yn syth ac yn glou. Ond, nid
ydym yn teimlo ein bod ni’n gallu gwneud hynny. Nid ydym
ni’n teimlo bod y gweithlu mewn lle i’n galluogi ni i
wneud hynny. A dyna pam rydym ni yn ei wneud y ffordd rydym
ni’n ei wneud. Felly, rydym ni’n cydweithio gydag
ysgolion ac athrawon ac mae gyda ni’r athrawon a’r
ysgolion yn teimlo’n hyderus eu bod nhw’n gallu delifro
y cwricwlwm newydd o fis Medi ymlaen, ac oherwydd hynny, dyna sut
rydym ni wedi dewis ei wneud y ffordd rydym ni wedi. Rwy’n
hyderus bod hynny’n mynd i lwyddo.
|
Alun
Davies: Yes, I’m confident that the
planning—we’ve discussed workforce planning—and
I’m confident that the process of collaborating with the
workforce is happening, and that’s why we are introducing it
in the way that we are. Some have argued that we have to get rid of
this whole business of ‘second language’ and change
immediately and quickly, and we don’t feel that we can do
that. We don’t feel that the workforce is in a place to
enable that and that’s why we’re doing it in the way
that we are. So, we’re collaborating with schools and the
teachers and we have teachers in schools who feel confident that
they can deliver the new curriculum from September, and because of
that, that’s how we have chosen to do it in this way.
I’m confident that that is going to succeed.
|
[237] Jeremy
Miles: Ar y cwestiwn ehangach
o’r continwwm y mae’r TGAU yn un rhan ohono,
mae’r continwwm yn mynd o’r blynyddoedd cynnar, drwyddo. A yw’r cynllunio
ar gyfer symud tuag at gontinwwm ieithyddol o’r cychwyn
cyntaf ar y ffordd yn barod?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Just on the broader question of the continuum, because
GCSE is one part of that, but the continuum goes from the early
years all the way through. Now, is the planning towards moving
towards a continuum from the very early stages already in the
pipeline?
|
[238] Alun
Davies: Ie, mi fydd hynny’n
rhan o’r strategaeth ac mi fydd hynny’n rhan o sut
rydym ni’n alinio newidiadau addysg Donaldson a galluogi
continwwm i fod yn realiti. Bethan, wyt ti
eisiau—?
|
Alun
Davies: Yes, that will be part of the strategy and will be part
of how we align the Donaldson education changes and enable to
continuum to actually be a reality. Bethan, would you like to add
anything?
|
[239] Ms
Webb: Jest i ychwanegu, ie,
continwwm ieithyddol ydy o, ac i gyd-fynd ag uchelgais Donaldson, y
transactional competence, yna os bydd rhywun yn gadael yr
ysgol yn 16 neu’n 18, ei bod hi wedyn yn bosib cario ymlaen
ar y continwwm drwy fynd i’r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg
Cenedlaethol a fydd yn cynnig lot o wahanol gyrsiau o ran gloywi
iaith, helpu pobl i ddefnyddio’r sgiliau ieithyddol maen nhw
wedi’u caffael yn yr ysgol yn y gweithle, ac yn y blaen.
Felly, bydd rhaid i’r continwwm sy’n cael ei ddysgu yn
yr ysgol o’r blynyddoedd cynnar drwyddo wedyn lincio i fyny
i’r arlwy sy’n cael ei gynnig gan y ganolfan ar ddiwedd
y daith fel ei bod hi’n fframwaith cynhwysfawr. Dyna’r
weledigaeth, a dyna’r gwaith sydd eisoes wedi
dechrau.
|
Ms Webb:
Yes, if I could just add to that, it is a linguistic continuum and
in terms of the Donaldson vision of the transactional competence,
if one leaves school at 16 or 18, that it’s then possible for
them to continue on that continuum by going to the National Centre
for Learning Welsh, which will provide a number of different
courses in terms of language improvement, helping people to use the
language skills that they’ve acquired in school in the
workplace and so on. So, the continuum from the early years and
from the school experience will then have to link up to the
provision made by the centre at the end of the journey so it is a
comprehensive vision, and that’s the work that’s
already commenced.
|
[240] Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch. Dai Lloyd.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Dai Lloyd.
|
11:30
|
[241] Dai
Lloyd: Ie, symud cam yn ôl;
cwestiwn byr ynglŷn â’r WESPs. Cyn bod plant hyd
yn oed yn cychwyn yn yr ysgol, pa arweiniad ydych chi’n ei
roi i gynghorau sir ynglŷn â’r angen i hyrwyddo
addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, efallai mewn sefyllfa lle na fyddent wedi
meddwl amdano? Rwy’n gwybod bod y mwyafrif llethol o’r
plant sy’n mynychu ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yma yn y de, beth
bynnag, yn dod o gartrefi di-Gymraeg. Ond, hefyd mae yna garfan o
rieni di-Gymraeg nad ydynt erioed wedi meddwl am freintiau addysg
cyfrwng Cymraeg. Sut ydych chi’n hyrwyddo hynny, neu yn
dangos arweinid i’w cynghorau sir nhw y dylent fod, o leiaf,
yn trio darparu rhyw fath o wybodaeth ynglŷn â breintiau
addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg? Yn naturiol, mae nifer fawr ohonom yn swil;
mae’r Gweinidog yn swil, rydw i’n swil ac mae nifer
iawn o rieni yn swil ac nid ydynt yn hoffi gofyn. Mae angen gwneud
yn siŵr bod y wybodaeth yna o’u blaenau nhw. Yn aml nid
ydy’r wybodaeth yna, ac mae pobl yn dewis anfon eu plant
i’r ysgol agosaf, heb gael y cyfle i feddwl am addysg cyfrwng
Cymraeg.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Yes, to go back a step; a short question about the
WESPs. Before children even start school, what guidance do you
provide to councils about the need to promote Welsh-medium
education, perhaps in a situation where they wouldn’t have
thought about it? I know that a large majority of children who
attend Welsh-medium schools here in south Wales come from
English-speaking homes, but there is a proportion of
non-Welsh-speaking parents who’ve never thought about the
advantages of Welsh-medium education. How do you promote that, or
show leadership to our county councils that they should at least be
trying to provide some sort of information about the benefits of
Welsh-medium education? Naturally, a number of us are shy; the
Minister’s shy, I’m shy and a lot of the parents are
shy and don’t like to ask. We need to make sure that the
information is there in front of them. Often, that information
isn’t there, and people just choose to send their children to
the closest school, without the opportunity to think about
Welsh-medium education.
|
[242]
Alun Davies:
Rydw i’n cytuno gyda’r
dadansoddiad. Rydw i’n meddwl mai un o wendidau, efallai, y
WESPs yw ein bod ni yn asesu’r galw, ond nid ydym yn
hybu’r galw o gwbl, nac yn galluogi pobl i deimlo fel bod
ganddynt ddewis go iawn i’w wneud. Yn aml iawn, os nad oes
ysgol yn agos iawn, nid yw rhieni yn meddwl bod ganddynt y gallu i
wneud penderfyniad i anfon eu plant i ysgol Gymraeg. Felly, un
o’r pethau rydw i eisiau ystyried fel rhan o’r
strategaeth ydy sut ydym yn gwneud hynny. Nid ydw i eisiau
dweud wrth rieni bod addysg Gymraeg yn well nac addysg Saesneg mewn
unrhyw ffordd, ond rydw i eisiau i bobl deimlo’n gyfforddus
ac yn gartrefol bod y gallu ganddynt i wneud penderfyniad. Felly,
mae’n un o’r heriau sydd gennym ni, ac rwy’n
cytuno gyda’r hyn rydych yn ei ddweud.
|
Alun
Davies: I agree with that analysis. I do think that one of the
weaknesses of WESPs is that we asses demand, but we don’t
actually encourage greater demand and tell people that they have an
option. Often, unless parents know the school that’s very
close to them, they don’t feel that they have the option to
send their children to Welsh-medium education. So, one of the
things that I want to consider as part of the strategy is how we
actually achieve that. I don’t want to tell parents that
Welsh-medium education is better than English-medium education in
any way, but I do want people to feel comfortable that they are in
a position to make that choice. It is one of the challenges facing
us, and I agree with what you have to say.
|
[243]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydych chi’n credu, felly, bod
angen newid beth mae’r WESPs yn ei wneud? Achos rydych newydd
ddweud nad ydych yn gofyn am hybu’r galw, ac mae nifer o bobl
wedi dweud bod angen newid yn emphasis arnyn nhw, felly.
Achos, er enghraifft, mae rhai o’r cynghorau dim ond yn mynd
i greu lleiafswm o leoedd newydd ar gyfer addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg,
yn hytrach na’r hyn, efallai, sydd yn—mae’r
boblogaeth gyffredinol eisiau mwy na hynny i fodoli yn y dyfodol.
Rydw i’n clywed beth rydych yn ei ddweud o ran eich bod chi
eisiau cael perthynas bositif gyda nhw, ond os nad yw’r
cynghorau yn mynd i fod yn gweithredu hynny, ac wedyn yn mynd i fod
yn effeithio ar sut yr ydych yn cyrraedd y targed hynny, pa gamau
ydych chi’n mynd i’w rhoi yn eu lle i newid beth
mae’r strategaeth yn ei wneud?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Do you think, then, that there’s a need to
change what the WESPs are doing? You’ve just said that you
don’t ask for promotion of the demand, and a lot of people
have said there’s a need to change the emphasis. For example,
some councils are only going to create the minimum in terms of new
places for Welsh-medium education, rather than what,
perhaps—the population in general want more than that to
exist in the future. I’m hearing what you’re saying in
terms of wanting to have a positive relationship with them, but if
the councils aren’t going to be operating on that basis and
then affecting how you’re going to achieve this target, what
steps are you going to put in place to change what the strategies
are doing?
|
[244]
Alun Davies:
Rydw i’n meddwl bod rhaid i ni
ystyried y WESPs. Nid ydynt wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus yn y
gorffennol i hybu, hyrwyddo a datblygu addysg Gymraeg. Rydym yn
gwybod hynny oherwydd mae’r rhifau yn dweud wrthym ni. Felly,
rydw i yn meddwl—a dyma pam rydw i’n dweud wrth ateb
Neil Hamilton fy mod i ar hyn o bryd yn trio ystyried ble ydym ni
gyda’r WESPs—gwneud cyhoeddiad i’r Cynulliad pan
fyddwn wedi dod at ddiwedd yr ystyriaeth honno. Byddaf yn gwneud
dau ddatganiad, efallai: datganiad o ble rydym ni gyda’r
WESPs presennol, ac wedyn sut yr ydym ni eisiau newid WESPs ar
gyfer y dyfodol. Rydw i wedi dweud, wrth ateb cwestiynau blaenorol,
bod gennym ni gyfle yn ystod yr haf, efallai, i gael trafodaeth ar
y math o strwythur, fframwaith a phensaernïaeth deddfwriaethol
ar gyfer y Gymraeg, ac rydw i yn meddwl bod rhaid i’r WESPs
fod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth. Ai dyma’r ffordd gorau
ymlaen? Ai dyma’r ffordd gorau i gynllunio addysg Gymraeg ar
gyfer y dyfodol? A ydym ni eisiau sicrhau bod gennym ni addysg
Gymraeg ar gael ar draws y wlad, ac wedyn sicrhau bod gan bobl yr
hawl a’r gallu i gael access i hynny? A ydy’r
WESPs yn gwneud hynny? Fe gawn ni weld.
|
Alun
Davies: I think we need to consider the WESPs. They
haven’t been particularly successful in the past in promoting
and developing Welsh-medium education. We know that because the
numbers tell us that. I do think—and that’s why I said
in response to Neil Hamilton that I am currently considering where
we are with the WESPs—that I will make a statement to the
Assembly when we have concluded that consideration. In fact, I
perhaps will make two statements: one in terms of the position with
the WESPs as they currently stand, and then how we want to see the
WESPs change for the future. I’ve said in response to
previous questions that we have an opportunity during the summer,
perhaps, to have a debate on the kind of legislative architecture
in place for the Welsh language, and I do think that the WESPs will
have to be part of that debate. Is this the best way forward? Is
this the best way to plan Welsh-medium education for the future? Do
we want to ensure that we have Welsh-medium education across the
country and then ensure that people have the right and ability to
access that? Do the WESPs achieve that? We’ll have to wait
and see.
|
[245]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jest un olaf gen i; a fydd yna
sefyllfa lle na fyddech yn cytuno arnyn nhw oherwydd na fyddent yn
mynd yn ddigon pell i chi allu cyrraedd y targed hwnnw? Er
enghraifft, os nad yw un cyngor penodol yn rhoi ffigwr digon
realistig o ran ehangu ar addysg Gymraeg yn yr ardal honno, sut,
felly, ydych chi’n mynd i weithredu ar y rhai sydd yn bodoli
ar hyn o bryd?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Just finally from me; is there a situation where you
wouldn’t agree to them because they weren’t going far
enough to reach that target? For example, if one specific council
doesn’t provide a realistic figure of expanding Welsh-medium
education in that area, how, therefore, are you going to act on
those that exist at the moment?
|
[246]
Alun Davies:
Dyna yn union beth rydw i’n
ystyried ar hyn o bryd. Pan fyddaf wedi dod at gasgliad, chi fydd y
cyntaf i wybod.
|
Alun
Davies: That’s exactly what I’m considering at the
moment. When I’ve come to a conclusion, you will be the first
to hear.
|
[247]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. Rydw i’n falch
o glywed hynny. Dawn.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. I’m pleased to
hear that. Dawn.
|
[248] Dawn
Bowden: Thank you, Chair. Minister, the self-evident fact, I
guess, is that the earlier you expose children to the Welsh
language the more likely that they will develop as fluent Welsh
speakers later in life. That seems to be the research, and that
seems to be the evidence that we’ve taken. So, I wanted to
know a little bit more, really, about how you intend to prioritise
early years provision in the short term within this strategy. I
know that the draft strategy talks about making available 331
additional classes to deliver this, and Mudiad Meithrin are talking
about the need for 650 classes to get us to where we need to be.
So, just your views around that, really—the prioritisation in
the strategy of early learning and whether the strategy is
ambitious enough at this stage.
|
[249] Alun
Davies: I certainly agree with the analysis. I absolutely agree
with the analysis. Certainly, Welsh-medium provision is an
absolutely key and fundamental part of the development of the
overall childcare offer that Carl Sargeant is leading on. We do
need to have in place sufficient provision to reach our targets. We
don’t have, at the moment—I completely accept that. I
hope that the strategy we put in place will contain the targets
that you’ve described.
|
[250] Now, how will we
do that? I think we need to ensure that the provision is available
across Wales. It will be more difficult in Merthyr than in Bangor,
and how do we do that? That is the question that we’re going
to have to answer in the coming years. The ambition is there. What
I hope we’ll be able to do is to ensure, both through the
childcare offer and the delivery of Welsh in the foundation phase,
that children will have those opportunities to learn and to become
familiar with the language. Then, if they wish to develop that
familiarity in later years, they’ll have the grounding and
the opportunity to do so. I think you’re absolutely right in
what you say about the importance of that early grounding, if you
like, in the early years that can then act as a foundation for the
future.
|
[251] Dawn
Bowden: But can I just ask: is that an early priority within
the strategy to start addressing that?
|
[252] Alun
Davies: Yes, it is. It is a priority. Myself, Carl, Kirsty and
Julie James have met on a pretty regular basis, developing the
childcare offer. Carl, as you know, is leading on that. The focus
is on how we deliver it. Carl has announced some pilot projects
across Wales, which will look at how we do that. We will learn from
those pilots, and we will learn how we deliver the childcare offer,
both in terms of the overall structure of the early years offer and
then how we ensure that the choice of language is a part of that.
We and I accept completely the challenge that you outline. The
challenge is there. It’s an essential part of it, and we need
to get it right.
|
[253] Dawn
Bowden: Okay, thank you.
|
[254]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae Jeremy eisiau gofyn
cwestiwn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy wants to ask a question.
|
[255]
Jeremy Miles:
Jest ar sail ffigurau’r Mudiad
Meithrin—roedden nhw’n sôn am ryw 650 o gylchoedd
newydd y byddai angen eu sefydlu er mwyn cyrraedd y nod o ddarparu
addysg blynyddoedd cynnar ar gyfer dosbarthiadau Cymraeg eu hiaith.
Fe wnaethon nhw awgrymu costau sefydlu hynny i ni hefyd. Roedd
e’n ryw £40,000 y flwyddyn i redeg un cylch, sydd yn
gweithio mas yn ryw £26 miliwn y flwyddyn ar gyfer 650 o
gylchoedd. Mae’r rhifau hynny yn rhifau mawr, beth bynnag
yw’r ffynonellau ariannu. A ydy’r rhifau hynny yn eich
taro chi fel rhifau y byddech chi’n eu disgwyl?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Just on the basis of Mudiad Meithrin’s
figures—they were talking about some 650 new cylchoedd
that would need to be established to achieve the aim of providing
early years education and Welsh-medium classes. They suggested the
cost of establishing those too, which was about £40,000 a
year to run one cylch, which works out to be about £26
million a year for 650 cylchoedd. They are great figures,
whatever the funding sources are. Are those figures what
you’d expect?
|
[256] Alun
Davies: Do you want to answer?
|
[257]
Ms Webb: Maen nhw’n niferoedd uchelgeisiol ac rydym
yn cael trafodaethau parhaus. Ond eto, os ydym yn mynd i ehangu yr
arlwy ar lefel Mudiad Meithrin, bydd yn rhaid datblygu’r
gweithlu hefyd. Beth sydd yn andros o ddiddorol o ran gweithlu ar y
lefel yna ydy ei fod yn denu lot o’r rhai sydd yn ddihyder eu
hiaith—y rhai sydd eisiau dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, achos
bod yr ieithwedd yn cael ei defnyddio efo plant yn syml. Felly, mae
o’n le da iawn i feithrin athrawesau cynorthwyol ar gyfer y
gweithlu yn yr ysgol a dod â’r gymuned ynghyd. Felly,
mae yna waith mapio pellach i’w wneud efo’r mudiad, ond
rydym wedi dechrau’r trafodaethau yna.
|
Ms Webb:
The numbers are ambitious and we do have ongoing discussions on
this. But again, if we are to enhance provision on the Mudiad
Meithrin level, we have to develop the workforce, too. What’s
very interesting about the workforce at that level is that it
attracts a number of people who lack confidence in their language
skills—people who do want to teach through the medium of
Welsh, because the Welsh used with children is at quite a basic
level. So, it’s a very good starting point for those who want
to move on to become teaching assistants in schools. So,
there’s some further mapping work that needs to be done with
Mudiad Meithrin, but we have started those discussions with
them.
|
[258]
Jeremy Miles:
O ran clustnodi adnoddau ac ati, a
fyddech chi’n ei weld, beth bynnag yw’r ffigwr ar ben
draw’r drafodaeth, fel arian newydd, neu beth bynnag
yw’r ffynonellau, neu arian a fyddai’n cymryd lle y
ddarpariaeth bresennol?
|
Jeremy Miles: In terms of earmarking resources and so forth,
would you see it, whatever the figure at the end of the discussion,
as new funding, or whatever the sources would be, or would it be
funding that replaces the current provision?
|
[259]
Alun Davies:
Rydym ni’n cael y trafodaethau
ar hyn o bryd ar y rhain.
|
Alun
Davies: We are having those discussions at that moment.
|
[260]
Bethan Jenkins:
Grêt, diolch. Rydym ni’n
symud ymlaen nawr at ddarparu adnoddau dysgu ac mae Dai yn mynd i
ofyn am hynny.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Great, thank you. We will move on now to the provision
of learning resources and Dai is going to ask questions on this
topic.
|
[261]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Yn rhannol, rydych chi wedi
ateb hwn yn eich atebion cynhwysfawr sydd wedi dod gerbron,
Weinidog, ond yn y bôn, wrth gwrs, os ydym ni’n mynd i
ddatblygu’r agenda yma, mae yna oblygiadau ynglŷn ag
ariannu deunyddiau—llyfrau, gwahanol ddefnyddiau addysgiadol
ac ati. A oes yna ryw fath o gynllun ar y gweill, neu rywbeth i
hyrwyddo hynny? Achos nid yw’n fater jest o gael yr athrawon
ac ati, ond mae’n fater o gael deunydd yn yr iaith Gymraeg i
fynd efo hynny.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. You’ve partly answered this in
your comprehensive answers, Minister, but, essentially, if
we’re going to develop this agenda, there are implications in
terms of funding materials—books, different educational
materials et cetera. Is there some sort of scheme in place or
something to promote that? Because it’s not just a matter of
having the teachers and so forth, but it’s a matter of having
materials through the medium of Welsh to accompany that.
|
[262]
Alun Davies:
Oes, ac mae Kirsty Williams wedi
gwneud datganiad, rwy’n credu. Fe ddywedodd hi yn y Cynulliad
ar 30 Tachwedd ei bod hi’n cynnal rhyw fath o summit
gyda darparwyr yn eu cyfanrwydd i edrych ar sut rydym ni’n
gallu gwella’r sefyllfa bresennol i sicrhau bod yna adnoddau
addysgol Cymraeg ar gael, ac ar gael ar yr adeg a’r amser y
mae eu hangen.
|
Alun
Davies: Yes, and Kirsty Williams made a statement in the
Assembly on 30 November, I believe. She said that she was to hold
some kind of a summit with providers in order to see how we can
make improvements to the current situation to ensure that
Welsh-medium education resources are available and at the
appropriate time.
|
[263]
Dai Lloyd: Ac yn dilyn o hynny—diolch am yr ateb
hwnnw—wrth gwrs, yng nghyd-testun hyn oll, ac fel rydych chi
wedi cyfeirio eisoes, mae defnyddio’r iaith Gymraeg fel pont,
yn lle rhyw fath o wahanfur. Mae yna agenda y mae ei angen i
gyflwyno Cymreictod—yn absenoldeb yr iaith, efallai—fel
pwnc i bobl sydd yn gwybod y nesaf peth i ddim am Gymru. Ac, wrth
gwrs, mae yna adnoddau ynghlwm â hynny hefyd—hynny yw,
pan mae pobl yn symud i mewn i fyw i Gymru a ddim yn gwybod dim byd
am Gymru, heb sôn am yr iaith Gymraeg. A oes yna ryw feddwl
yn rhywle bod angen pontio fel yna hefyd, ac, wrth gwrs, yr
adnoddau sy’n mynd yn y cyd-destun yna, fel ei bod, yn nes
ymlaen, yn mynd yn haws i bobl ymgyfarwyddo efo’r iaith
Gymraeg, achos mae o fewn y cyd-destun Cymreictod yma y maen nhw
nawr yn gwybod amdano fe? Maen nhw’n disgwyl cyfarfod
efo’r iaith Gymraeg ac yn debyg o fod yn llai gelyniaethus
tuag ati.
|
Dai Lloyd: And following on from
that—thank you for that response—of course, in the
context of all of this, and as you referred to previously,
there’s using the Welsh language as a bridge, rather than
some sort of barrier. There is an agenda that needs to introduce
Welshness—in the absence of the language, perhaps—as a
subject for people who don’t know anything or next to nothing
about Wales. And, of course, there are resources involved in that,
with people moving into Wales and who don’t know anything
about Wales, let alone the Welsh language. Is there some sort of
thinking somewhere about the need to bridge there, and, of course,
there are the resources that are needed in that context, because,
later on, it would become easier for people to become familiar with
the Welsh language, because it’s in this context of Welshness
that they are now aware of it? They expect to come in contact with
the Welsh language and they are more likely to be less hostile
towards it.
|
[264]
Alun Davies:
Efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol
o’r gwaith y mae Cyngor Gwynedd wedi bod yn ei wneud
gyda’r siarter iaith, sydd wedi bod yn gwneud yr union un
fath o rôl—sydd wedi bod yn chwarae’r rôl
yna—gyda phobl sy’n symud i Wynedd i fyw, ac yn
cyflwyno dim jest yr iaith ei hun, yr iaith dechnegol—sut i
siarad Cymraeg—ond hefyd y diwylliant y mae’r iaith yn
rhan ohono fe. Ac rwyf i wedi gweld ei bod wedi bod yn hynod
lwyddiannus ac yn helpu pobl i deimlo’n gartrefol yn eu
cartref newydd. Mae’n cael ei gyflwyno fel ffordd o groesawu
pobl i fyw yn y gymuned, ac yn helpu pobl i deimlo’n
gyfforddus yn y gymuned, ac yn darparu ffordd o ddysgu beth
yw’r diwylliant Cymraeg ac yn helpu pobl i deimlo’n
rhan ohono fe. Felly, rwyf wedi’i gweld hi fel proses hynod o
bositif, ac mae wedi bod yn broject sydd wedi cael ei groesawu gan
groestoriad o bobl, a hefyd lle mae pobl wedyn yn teimlo eu bod
nhw’n gallu dysgu Cymraeg, os dyna yw eu dewis nhw, ond o
leiaf ddeall pam mae’r Gymraeg yn bwysig a hefyd y diwylliant
Cymreig ehangach.
|
Alun
Davies: You may be aware of the work that Gwynedd Council has
been undertaking with their language charter, which has been
carrying out exactly that role with the people moving to Gwynedd to
live. It introduces not only the language itself in terms of how to
speak Welsh, but also introduces them to the culture within which
the language exists. I think that’s been a success, and
it’s helped people to settle in their new homes. It’s a
way of welcoming people into communities, and helps them to settle
and feel comfortable in those communities, and provides a means for
people to learn about Welsh culture, and helps people feel part of
that culture. And I have seen it as a very positive process, and a
project that has been welcomed by a cross-section of the
population, and also where people do feel that that they can learn
the Welsh language, if that’s their choice, but at least
understand why the Welsh language is important and why the broader
Welsh culture is important, too.
|
[265]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch, Dai. Rydym ni’n symud
ymlaen at gategoreiddio’r ysgolion nawr. Mae gan Lee
gwestiynau ar hynny.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Thank you,
Dai. We’ll move on to school categorisation and Lee has some
questions on that.
|
[266] Lee
Waters: Thank you, Chair. Could you just give us some sense of,
by 2050, what you envisage the mix might be of the different types
of schools across Wales, and in what kind of proportions?
|
[267] Alun
Davies: In terms of linguistic categorisation—this is
something I am considering at the moment and want to give further
consideration to. There is a broad debate, sometimes conducted in
different ways, about the categorisation of schools. And I
understand absolutely, completely, that this is something that is
close to the hearts of many people and communities, and it is
something that we need to take great care about understanding, and
it’s something we need to take great care in the way in which
we deal with it.
|
[268] It is my
intention to give this more consideration over the coming weeks and
months, and it is my intention to look at how categorisation works,
and what happens at the end of that school experience for those
children who’ve been through that school. It is my
expectation that children, or young people reaching the age of 16
should be either bilingual—being able to speak both English
and Welsh—or at least have a good grounding of Welsh,
depending on where or, perhaps, what school they’ve been to.
It is also my understanding that that is not always the case. I
think we need to have a point of reflection and consideration as to
what works and what doesn’t work, what is effective and what
isn’t effective, and how we move forward on that agenda. That
is a matter that I will be considering over the coming year.
|
11:45
|
[269] Lee
Waters: I’m pleased to hear that. Thank you, Minister.
You mentioned earlier about the need to bring communities with us
and the sensitivities around this. As we’ve been speaking
here this morning, Carmarthenshire County Council have been meeting
to discuss the case of Llangennech school. I wouldn’t expect
you to talk about the school, in particular, because there’s
a process going on, but it’s a very good case study of how
divisions can develop between communities and people within a
school who have a certain set of aspirations, but those aspirations
not always being in tune with all of the parents, and certainly
with the broader community, and a feeling that the process is being
driven by targets from outside the area—and specifically, in
this case, in the WESPs. So, I think it does raise a number of
issues about how we take schools on this journey. I just wonder if
you have any reflections about how we can make sure there
isn’t a disconnect between the target in the WESP and the
local community feeling.
|
[270] Alun
Davies: Yes, I would hope—. I think I said in answer to
Neil Hamilton that I wouldn’t expect the WESP for one area to
be exactly the same as a WESP for another area. I would expect it
to represent and reflect the area that it’s seeking to
describe. You’re absolutely right in your assumption—I
make no comment. Nothing I should say this morning should be read
in any way as a comment about any individual school or
decision-making process from any single local authority, and I say
that quite clearly.
|
[271] Let me say this
also: my experience of living in this country is that there is a
great font of goodwill towards the language, and that there is a
great font of goodwill towards ensuring that children growing up in
Wales today have the ability to have at least a working knowledge
of Welsh. That will mean different things in different places and
for different people. I hope that we will be able to reflect, over
the coming weeks and months of this year, on how we achieve that.
The linguistic character of any school is a matter for considerable
discussion and debate in that community, and the linguistic
character of a school will sometimes reflect the aspirations of the
wider community.
|
[272] I hope that we
will be able to move away from some of the negative debates that
we’ve had in the past, and I hope that we will be able to
move towards a debate about how we are able to encourage and enable
children from all parts of the community, in all sorts of different
parts of Wales, to acquire both a working knowledge of Welsh, to
have an education through the medium of Welsh, or to leave school
as speaking Welsh. Let us see how we achieve that. That means
asking some very challenging questions—some very, very
challenging questions—because we have a system at the moment
that we believe works in different places. But does it work? Does a
bilingual school deliver bilingual people? Ask the question. And if
not, why not? What is happening in that school if it is not
delivering that agenda for their school career—bilingual
citizens? Why isn’t it doing it? What is going wrong? So,
let’s have that discussion. Let’s have that debate.
Let’s have that debate without rancour. Let’s have that
debate without some of the negativity we’ve seen in some
places, and let’s have that debate about the future and what
we want for our children. I hope that we’ll be able to have
that conversation. Lee knows that I want time to reflect on this. I
think a period of reflection is more important than a knee-jerk
reaction.
|
[273] Lee
Waters: Okay, thank you.
|
[274] Bethan
Jenkins: Can you just tell us, though—you say that
you’d need different approaches in different areas: would you
say that you’d need to perhaps take a firmer, or perhaps a
tougher stance in some areas where perhaps the levels are lower in
those areas that are not seeing the Welsh language as a priority,
whereas, as you said earlier, the logic would be, with higher
education and the regulations, some institutions are already
working hard to deliver that. So, you would see now that there are
some local authorities that are already performing well in relation
to the numbers of Welsh schools and people going through the
system, but then there are others that are lagging far, far behind.
What type of approach, then, will be necessary to get that up to
scratch for the 1 million to be achieved?
|
[275] Alun
Davies: A type of approach that works and not a type of
approach that simply means a Minister banging a desk in Cardiff
bay. And a type of approach that means that we work with people to
reflect the ambitions and visions of the local community and that
reflects the difference in experience of the Welsh language in
different parts of Wales. The experience of a speaker in using
Welsh in some of the places that Neil represents on the Llŷn
peninsula will be very, very different to my experience in Blaenau
Gwent, which will be different to Hannah’s experience in
Delyn, and we need to understand and appreciate that. I don’t
think a one-size-fits-all approach works.
|
[276] I want to see
policies in terms of delivering and supporting both Welsh-language
education and the wider use of Welsh in the community that reflect
the needs of that community. Jeremy will remember the opening of
Tŷ’r Gwrhyd in Pontardawe some months ago—
|
[277] Jeremy
Miles: It was great.
|
[278] Alun
Davies: Yes. I follow it on Twitter. It’s been a great
success in ensuring—. You, yourself, Bethan, live not far
from there; you will understand and appreciate how a community
resource like that can help increase the visibility and use of
Welsh in that community. So, let’s look at what works in
different places and build on that. What I don’t want to do
is to become involved in a very negative, difficult argument, and I
don’t think that’s what anybody wants any Minister to
be doing at the moment.
|
[279] Bethan
Jenkins: Suzy just had something on this.
|
[280] Suzy
Davies: Yes, just on this very specific issue. I agree that,
whatever you’re doing needs to reflect the needs of that
particular population, but one of the criticisms that we’ve
had as an Assembly in the past, and I’m sure Government has
had, of Welsh in education strategic plans in particular but not
exclusively, is that, if they’re not promoting and raising
awareness and growing demand, it’s actually quite difficult
to establish what the needs of that community actually are, as
opposed to what they are at a given time. So, what I didn’t
quite get from you in your answer to Bethan is quite how ambitious
you expect all authorities to be.
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[281] Alun
Davies: I expect ambition and we need ambition. But what
I’m trying to do is tread this very fine line, if you like,
where we say, ‘Yes, we want to be ambitious; yes we want to
see the Welsh language as a living part of our different
communities’, but recognise that that’s going to be
different in different places, it’s going to be different in
different communities, and reflect upon what the ambitions for all
those different communities are. And then, the process—and
this is really, really important, Suzy—is not simply to
establish targets, arbitrary targets, for this year, for next
year—
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[282] Suzy
Davies: I accept that.
|
[283] Alun
Davies:—for different parts of Wales, whether it’s
Swansea, or whether it’s Blaenau Gwent, or whether it’s
Pembrokeshire or wherever. Let’s look at what is possible and
what is achievable in individual areas and then work with people.
And this is a key message I want to get across this
morning—I’m not convinced that the WESPs, as they
currently exist, are the most effective tool that we have available
to us. We certainly need to review them, we need to look at them
and we may need a different statutory framework for them. I accept
that. Let’s have that discussion; let’s have that
debate.
|
[284] However, where
we are today—and this is why I was so shy in not answering
Neil’s earlier question—I am considering, at the
moment, the WESPs that we have in front of us. I have not completed
my consideration of those WESPs yet. When I have completed my
consideration, I will make a statement on that—I will make a
statement here in the National Assembly first and foremost.
|
[285] Bethan
Jenkins: That’s separate to the White Paper.
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[286] Alun
Davies: Yes.
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[287] Suzy
Davies: I was being a bit more general about local
authorities’ general duty towards the Welsh language.
|
[288] Alun
Davies: I know, I know. So, we’ll take that decision and
we’ll move forward and we’ll do that with consensus and
we’ll do it in collaboration. Local authorities have an
absolutely key role to play. We’re aware of the report on the
Welsh language in public service delivery that was commissioned by
Leighton Andrews last year, but now is being led by Mark Drakeford
this year, and Mark has already made one statement to the National
Assembly on that and we will look at how we can continue to build
on the wider delivery of Welsh-language services with local
government, working together to do that.
|
[289] Again, the same
principle applies: what you will deliver in Aberystwyth will be
different to what you deliver in Abertillery.
|
[290]
Suzy Davies: There may be some other questions on promotion. So,
sorry if I’ve cut across.
|
[291] Alun
Davies: But I’m talking about public service delivery as
well.
|
[292] Suzy
Davies: Ah, right. Lovely, thank you.
|
[293] Bethan
Jenkins: Hannah.
|
[294] Hannah
Blythyn: We’ve touched on the need for additional
teachers to teach through the Welsh medium if we’re going to
meet the ambition of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. I think we
know that the recruitment and retention of teachers is an issue,
specifically more in certain parts of Wales as well. So can you
share with the committee how you are liaising with the Cabinet
Secretary to address those issues?
|
[295] Alun
Davies: Kirsty’s made some statements on initial teacher
training and teacher education. The challenges you outline are
absolutely—I have no question about them; you’re
absolutely right. What we’re seeking to do is to ensure that
we are able to have the workforce development mechanisms in place
that will achieve our targets. And I think Kirsty Williams has been
very clear that we do have some very significant challenges to face
at the moment, and she is leading work on that. How do I work
alongside her? Let me say this absolutely clearly: myself and
Kirsty work very closely together on all aspects of the education
portfolio. She’s, I think, leading a process of change in a
radical way. I think the tone she’s adopted since appointment
has been fantastic in the approach that she’s taken. And I
and she work closely together to ensure that across the whole
portfolio we are able to take all of these matters into
consideration.
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[296] Hannah
Blythyn: Shifting slightly from that, I think my colleague Dawn
alluded to it to her in a question on the importance of that,
actually, we know the earlier a child learns Welsh, the better it
is. I think, from the evidence we’ve taken, the
retention—more the retention rather than the recruitment in
the early years sector—is a specific issue as well, because
it’s non-statutory and the people that maybe come into early
years then go off and train and upskill to become teachers, because
there’s a difference in pay scales and so on. Have you looked
into matters specifically relating to early years in terms of
recruitment and retention?
|
[297] Alun
Davies: I think Bethan referred earlier to the way in which the
early years delivery is being developed. And, certainly, there are
some very real challenges there, and one of the things that
I’m very anxious to do is look at, for example, how coleg
Cymraeg, the success of that in higher education, can be
extended or replicated in further education. How can we deliver
some of the childcare qualifications, for example, through the
medium of Welsh in further education? I wanted to see how we do
that and the task and finish group at the moment is looking at some
of those options and will report in the summer. But when
we’re taking forward the overall childcare offer we will need
a mix of skills, and a mix of skills in both languages, in order to
deliver that childcare offer comprehensively and consistently
across the whole country. The language is a part of that;
it’s in the mix to ensure that we are able to deliver
bilingually. But the challenges you outline, Hannah, are absolutely
clear and understood, and I accept your analysis and the way in
which you’ve outlined that, and those are exactly the sort of
issues that we’re going to be looking toward dealing
with.
|
[298] Bethan
Jenkins: Lee, did you have something on that?
|
[299] Lee
Waters: Yes. Can I just follow on to ask specifically around
the learning support staff? They make up 45 per cent of the whole
workforce and we’ve heard in evidence that the whole
workforce needs to be considered, not just the teachers. But very
little is known, at the minute, about the level of proficiency in
Welsh of learning support staff, and anecdotally it’s
expected to be fairly low. So, clearly, developing support staff
and their ability to improve their language skills is key. What are
your thoughts and plans about addressing this?
|
[300] Alun
Davies: We’re expecting the EWC to deliver their analysis
of that in March, and my current view is that we should wait for
that and reflect on those reports when we have them. Certainly, the
data that you’re looking for, the Education Workforce Council
should be able to deliver that in March. When we understand those
data, when we’re able to analyse those data, then we need to
work on the basis of establishing our policy response on the basis
of that knowledge. So, my current intention is to wait until March,
receive the report, reflect upon it and move forward from
there.
|
12:00
|
[301]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Mae gan Suzy gwestiynau
ynglŷn â hyrwyddo.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Suzy has questions on promotion.
|
[302]
Suzy Davies: Yes. [Inaudible.]—because I wasn’t
sure if someone else was asking these, but I did want to come back
to promotion. You started to mention your view on how public
services, more generally, might be able to, shall we say, ramp up
their obligations, if you like, to promote the Welsh language, but
you indicated you may not be able to tell us very much at this
stage. I don’t know if there is anything more you can tell
us.
|
[303]
If not, that’s fine. I’ve got
other questions. [Laughter.]
|
[304]
Alun Davies: Let me think what I can say. In terms of where we are
at the moment, Mark Drakeford’s working on the Welsh in
public services report and taking that forward. Rhodri Glyn Thomas
produced the report, I think it was probably in spring last year,
and we need to take that forward and Mark Drakeford is leading on
that. In terms of wider issues of promotion, I think it’s
fair to reflect that, since we had the current statutory framework
in place, promotion has not had the place that it should have. As a
consequence of that, we have focused on regulation and not
promotion. My feeling is that emphasis is in the wrong place, that
we should place an emphasis on promotion rather than regulation.
One of the reasons why I’m anxious to look at and review the
statutory framework we have for Welsh is to ensure that we have a
means and mechanism in place to promote Welsh, and not simply to
regulate problems with the delivery of the standards and the rest
of it. So, I think we need to take an approach that is more
holistic, and we need an approach that places a different emphasis
in different places at the moment. You will be aware that the
Government has an agreement with Plaid Cymru in terms of the
budgets. Part of that agreement was to create an agency to do some
of these things. I am continuing my conversations with Plaid Cymru
at the moment, and I would hope and expect to be in a position to
make an announcement on that in the coming weeks.
|
[305]
Suzy Davies: You may want to talk to other parties as well,
because that was in other manifestos. Could I ask you a slightly
more difficult question, which is how far the reach of Government
can go on this? Obviously, I can see the public sector, but a
question I’ve raised with you before, which relates to Welsh
and the economy, and the benefits of Welsh to business,
that’s more difficult for you to get into, through either
regulation or legislation, I’d have thought. Have you given
any more consideration—again, I appreciate it’s early
days—about how you can really get buy-in from the Welsh
business community to do a lot of this work for you?
|
[306]
Alun Davies: Yes. I think you asked this question in the Chamber
before Christmas—
|
[307]
Suzy Davies: Yes, I did.
|
[308] Alun Davies: —and it’s an excellent question. I hope
that—. I don’t buy the characterisation that compulsion
delivers great bilingualism. I think bilingualism at its best is
delivered by people who are committed to it, and who want to see
bilingualism work and reflect the needs and ambitions of the
community. So, I would hope that businesses of any size,
description, and all the rest of it, would want to reflect their
communities and would want to see the Welsh language as a part of
their overall proposition and a part of their overall branding. All
of us who will travel regularly will understand that different
international businesses will operate in different languages in
different territories and different places. I would hope and expect
that the bilingualism that we would like to see in Wales would be
reflected throughout the whole of the community and including
businesses, and it’s happening at the moment. I don’t
buy the characterisation of business as being antagonistic towards
any of this. You see businesses operating bilingually, and you see
businesses who are doing great things to deliver bilingualism, and
I celebrate that, I encourage that. I hope that, as we normalise,
if you like, the use of the Welsh language in other parts of the
society and the community, business itself will feel able to be a
part of that. It is not my intention to simply use compulsion at
every opportunity. It is my preference to use persuasion, and my
preference is always—. As a Welsh speaker, I know that the
bilingual policies that work easiest for me are bilingual
policies that are delivered by people who care and are doing it
because they think it’s the right to do, because it’s
part of their business model, it’s part of who they are,
rather than somebody who’s just compelled to put up a
bilingual sign.
|
[309] Suzy
Davies: Yes, well, I’d agree with you on that one. Can I
just test that a little bit further, because I’m
still—? I don’t disagree with what you’re saying
there, that this is a big persuasion case rather than,
‘Let’s go and throw a load of standards at the private
sector’, but, at some point, the responsibility lies with
someone to make things happen, and I’m just trying to get a
sense of how far you think that is a role for Government,
really.
|
[310] Alun
Davies: It’s an interesting question, isn’t it?
|
[311] Suzy
Davies: I don’t want to pin you down specifically. I
don’t want to tie your hands, shall we say, for the future.
But, you know, how closed is the door? How open is the door? You
cited some businesses that are buying into this now, but
they’re not in the majority yet. That’s certainly my
experience in my own region.
|
[312] Alun
Davies: Do you know, Government can do great things, and
Government can do all sorts of things, but there isn’t a
Government in the world that can persuade me to speak Welsh to my
six-year-old when I’m trying to get him to sleep at
night?
|
[313] Suzy
Davies: Yes, exactly.
|
[314] Alun
Davies: At the end of the day, the change that we are trying to
create in Wales is a change that is an organic change and is a
change that is part of our communities and is a part of who we are
as people. You know, I don’t want Government, and I
wouldn’t want the language, to be seen as a tool of
regulation where we always go for the stick and never the carrot.
My inclination is always that we should cajole, sometimes persuade,
encourage, enable—‘enable’ is the most powerful,
of course; ‘enable’ is always the most
powerful—help people. You know, the role of Government could
well be, for example, to help a small business owner to produce
bilingual signs, signage and the rest of it; it could be to provide
a larger business with support in delivering what would be a
bilingual proposition to potential customers. And so, I think the
role of Government will be a different role in different places
with different businesses and different sized institutions, but I
think the role of Government should first and foremost be a
positive role and not simply as a regulator.
|
[315] Suzy
Davies: Okay, well, all I seek is reassurance that you’re
not just waiting for, let’s say, 15 years down the line of
this strategy, when there’s more bilingual capacity,
hopefully, in the population at large, to create
demand—‘organically’ was the word you used, I
think. I just wondered if there is a bit more to it than that, and
I think you said there will be, so, thank you; I don’t want
to take much more time. No, thank you.
|
[316]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jest cwestiwn olaf gen i, cyn inni
orffen. A ydych chi’n hyderus bod yr arian sydd gyda chi fel
Gweinidog o ran delifro strategaeth yn mynd i allu bod yn
llwyddiannus i gyrraedd yr amcan o 1 miliwn o siaradwyr yma?
Mae’n mynd i gymryd lot mwy na dim ond y sector addysg ac
ariannu’r sector addysg yn gynhwysfawr er mwyn gweddnewid yr
hyn yr ŷch chi eisiau ei wneud fel Llywodraeth. So, a ydy
hynny’n ddigonol, a pha drafodaethau ydych chi wedi eu cael
â Gweinidogion eraill, felly, pan fo yna bethau fel y cyfnod
cynnar a mwy o gyfleoedd yn hynny o beth? A ydych chi wedi pennu
cyllideb ar gyfer faint o arian yn rhan o’r cynllun hwnnw a
fydd angen iddo fynd tuag at yr iaith Gymraeg, er
enghraifft?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Just a final question from me, before we finish. Are
you confident that the money you have as a Minister in terms of
delivering the strategy is going to be successful in achieving the
target of 1 million Welsh speakers? It’s going to take a lot
more than just the education sector and funding the education
sector comprehensively in order to transform what you want to do as
a Government. So, is that sufficient, and what discussions have you
had with other Ministers, therefore, when there are things such as
the early years and more opportunities in that regard? Have you set
a budget for the amount of money that, as part of that scheme, will
need to go towards the Welsh language for example?
|
[317]
Alun Davies:
Rwy’n fodlon ar y sefyllfa
bresennol, ac rŷm ni’n cynnal trafodaethau yn wythnosol
ac yn fisol â’r Gweinidogion eraill i drafod y sefyllfa
ariannol a chyllidebau’r dyfodol, ac rŷm ni’n
cynnal trafodaethau o wythnos i wythnos ar y materion yma, ac
rwy’n hyderus bod gennym ni’r adnoddau sydd eu hangen
arnom ni. Wedi dweud hynny, wrth gwrs, buasai pob un Gweinidog yn
dod gerbron pwyllgor yn gofyn am fwy o adnoddau; mae hynny’n
beth cwbl naturiol i’w wneud.
|
Alun
Davies: I am content with the current situation, and we have
weekly and monthly discussions with other Ministers to discuss the
financial situation and future budgets, and we have discussions on
a weekly basis on this issue, and I’m confident that we have
the necessary resources. Having said that, of course, every
Minister would always appear before a committee asking for further
resources; that’s quite natural.
|
[318]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch am ddod
gerbron y pwyllgor yma heddiw. Rŷm ni’n edrych ymlaen at
weld eich strategaeth chi ac, wrth gwrs, mae’n siŵr, pan
fyddwn ni’n adrodd ar ein hymchwiliad, y bydd cyfle i chi
ymateb yn y drefn arferol. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn i chi
heddiw.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much, and thank you for appearing
before the committee today. We look forward to seeing the strategy
and, I’m sure, when we report on this inquiry, there will be
an opportunity for you to respond as per usual. Thank you very
much.
|
[319]
Alun Davies:
A gaf i ddweud fy mod i’n
ddiolchgar iawn i’r pwyllgor am y gwaith mae wedi ei wneud?
Rwy’n croesawu, ac mi fuaswn i’n croesawu, cyfraniad y
pwyllgor i’r gwaith o lunio’r strategaeth. Rwyf i hefyd
yn datgan y ffaith liciwn i ddod yn ôl efallai i’r
pwyllgor, pan fyddwn ni wedi cyhoeddi’r strategaeth, a
thrafod ein gobeithion ar gyfer y strategaeth a pham rŷm ni
wedi dewis y ffordd yr ŷm ni wedi’i dewis i symud
ymlaen.
|
Alun
Davies: May I say that I am very grateful to the committee for
the work that it has undertaken? I welcome, and would welcome, the
committee’s contribution to the work of drawing up the
strategy. I would also say that I’d like to return to the
committee once we’ve published the strategy in order to
discuss our hopes and aspirations for that strategy and why we have
chosen the approach that we have chosen to take it forward.
|
[320]
Bethan Jenkins:
Yn sicr, bydd cyfle inni edrych ar
hyn yn y dyfodol, ac mae’n sicr y bydd yna sesiynau eraill ar
y mater yma yn benodol. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Yes, there’ll certainly be an opportunity for us
to look at this in future, and there will be further sessions on
this specific issue. Thank you very much.
|
[321]
Alun Davies:
Diolch i chi.
|
Alun
Davies: Thank you.
|
12:10
|
Cynnig o dan
Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the
Public
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd ar gyfer eitem
6 yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
|
that the committee resolves
to exclude the public from item 6 in accordance with Standing Order
17.42(vi).
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved.
|
|
[322] Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 5, nawr. Mae cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i
benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. A yw pawb yn
hapus gyda hynny? Diolch yn fawr.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to
resolve to exclude the public from the rest of the meeting. Is
everyone content? Thank you very much.
|
Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion
agreed.
|
|
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
12:10.
The public part of the meeting ended at 12:10.
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